Random Thoughts Thread

[Menegrothx]

I'd also argue that if your basis is in Christianity, you are viewed even more poorly than any other religion.

Christianity is too common and boring. Islam is exotic so it's cool. "Fighting" Christianity in this day and age takes no courage what so ever. It has already been beaten into submission in most first world countries. Liberal atheists who think they're being "courageous" by attacking christianity but who defend islam are the worst.

On another note though, I'd be careful about the "preserving our culture" arguments. You know who else uses that argument all the time? Stormfront. Neo-Nazis. The Aryan Brotherhood. Etc.

It is funny watching this from an American view though, seeing as if someone makes one of those arguments over here, they're a racist conservative asshole.

That's just sign how messed up things are if you can't say that.
Preserving your culture does not necessarily mean you want to "keep your blood pure" as is the case with the groups you described. Asking that the immigrants who move to your country integrate and that you shouldn't take any more before the ones you have do isn't the same thing as wishing to be North Korea.

The problem on the American side of things is that it's a country that was built by immigrants, so some people will have problem if you differentiate between immigrant groups. In Europe, Africa and Asia that problem doesn't exist.

Look at what's been going on in the global economy. Why are eastern countries about to overtake the west when the west was richer for the past 2 centuries? Because the west got too complacent and didn't reform or make any difficult choices.

Japan and South Korea have very strict immigration policies.

South Korea is one of the most ethnically homogeneous societies in the world, with more than 99% of inhabitants having Korean ethnicity.[135] Koreans call their society 단일민족국가, Dan-il minjok guk ga, "the single race society".

Japanese people aren't much different either.
China is a more large and diverse country, but given their history, I wouldn't bet too much on their willingness to become multicultural.

I don't really see what this has to do with values or nationalism. East Asian countries are more conservative, traditionalist and racist than Western Europe. Adapting new technology, innovating and focusing on education&science does not mean that you have to abandon all traditions.

The most succesful people I have met always tend to judge their country more than the less succesful ones who need the group mentality of "we are better than other countries" to feel good about themselves.

I'm very critical of my country and government. I still recognize that objectively speaking, it's one of the best places in world, and I'd like it to remain that way - and improve.

And how does all that mean that I would "feel like family with neo nazis"? Then again if you've been conditioned by the media that hard, then it's no point talking to.

The fact that you said this just proves my point. This to you is a north vs south debate, it's about countries not people.

The topic was islam, and not countries. Islam does not have a set geographic location, it's a religion. Again I don't see what this has have to do with neo nazis.

This is me having a problem with a specific mentality. The racist mentality. You make broad generalizations based on "common truths" that I only see being recreated by racist people, and specially the neo-nazis of my country (you just have different targets).

Islam is not a race, it's a religion. Just because I recognize statistical and scientific facts (I'm not talking about prejudices or opinions here, but statistical data gathered by officials) regarding countries and nationalities does not mean that I treat individual people differently. I judge people on a case by case basis and their religion and ethnicity is meaningless then.

[dsheinem]

How is loving the country you belong to stupid?

If you "love" America, what is it that you love, exactly? I would guess that, like most who claim this, you'd list a slew of ideologies which are not uniquely American or that you'd cherry pick certain historical positions or moments that you think were wise. If you instead love the "people of America" or the "places of America" what makes them any more or less inherently lovable than any other people or places? "Patriotism" is what's known as an "empty signifier," which makes it a very useful political tool but a very poor personal morality.

[oxymoron]

Christianity is too common and boring. Islam is exotic so it's cool. "Fighting" Christianity in this day and age takes no courage what so ever. It has already been beaten into submission in most first world countries. Liberal atheists who think they're being "courageous" by attacking Christianity but who defend Islam are the worst.

And why is that? I personally believe that religion is just a means of instilling morality. It keeps people in order and keeps them from thinking outside the box. To me Christianity and Islam both have their own faults and defending one over the other isn't 'worse'. That line just makes you seem like an Islamophobe.

Edit: Added more to my comment.

[ZeroAX]

I was talking about countries that are too in love with themselves not being willing to reform. Simply put people hate change and will resist it till the last minute/it's absolutely necessary.

The reason Asia is doing so well is because in the 90s there was a big economic crisis there. The countries reformed while the west was resting on tis laurels being all "har har, if only you Asian people could be as succesful as us".

But if they too get complacent (which they are) in about a decade's time things will probably be the opposite (again).

Heck with the exception fo China (and maaaaybe Brazil), the BRIC countries are heading for a very ugly crash. Specially Russia and India haven't reformed at all and thus their economies won't be able to grow much further.

Basically unlike most people I'm not trying to oppose nationalism based on ethics, I'm trying to oppose it based on pure economics. MONEY. It's like a company that is not paying attention to its competitors. Heck you could compare Japan's troubles to Sony's.




And looooooooooool. Now you are using the "X is not a race" argument? Totally not neo-nazi. Were you the same guy who once said on these forums that you can't be racist towards the Japanese cause Japanese is not a race? Should we change the word so it sounds more like "groupofpeoplesim" so we can accuse you of that?

Also America was built on immigration and it has been the biggest economy in the world for an entire century. The fact that you think "ethnical purity" makes a country strong shows just how blind you are.

An economy is much more likely to be strong if it is supported by good infastructure, proper governing rules and a plethora of other factors.

[Menegrothx]

Basically unlike most people I'm not trying to oppose nationalism based on ethics, I'm trying to oppose it based on pure economics. MONEY.

Because outsourcing jobs and globalization being a major part of capitalism is such a new concept

And looooooooooool. Now you are using the "X is not a race" argument? Totally not neo-nazi.

Islam is a religion and not an ethnicity and you're borderline retarded if you're trying to state otherwise. There are black African muslims, Indian muslims, North African&Middle-Eastern muslims, Russian&North-Asian muslims, Southeast Asian muslims etc. That's like saying that you're a racist if you criticize Christianity because Christianity is a race.

Were you the same guy who once said on these forums that you can't be racist towards the Japanese cause Japanese is not a race?

No

Also America was built on immigration and it has been the biggest economy in the world for an entire century. The fact that you think "ethnical purity" makes a country strong shows just how blind you are.

The fact that you're putting words in my mouth and arguing about a term whose meaning you don't know shows just how clueless you are.

And why is that?
That line just makes you seem like an Islamophobe.

Because from the point of view of a liberal atheist, islam, the way know it today, is worse than Christianity, the way we know it today. Christianity has been reformed and christian countries are largely secular. Islam, the way we know it today, is a much bigger evil from that point of view than Christianity. So attacking the much weaker religion that doesn't really defend itself, while not saying anything about, or worse yet defending, the much bigger problem that actually fights back, is either cowardice or hypocrisy.

[Forlorn Drifter]

Christianity is too common and boring. Islam is exotic so it's cool. "Fighting" Christianity in this day and age takes no courage what so ever. It has already been beaten into submission in most first world countries. Liberal atheists who think they're being "courageous" by attacking Christianity but who defend Islam are the worst.

And why is that? I personally believe that religion is just a means of instilling morality. It keeps people in order and keeps them from thinking outside the box. To me Christianity and Islam both have their own faults and defending one over the other isn't 'worse'. That line just makes you seem like an Islamophobe.

Edit: Added more to my comment.

I think he may have been meaning to point out the irony of that statement, which does happen. (Although I don't think it happens as often as he argues.) A liberal atheist is, in many ways, dependent on the follower of Islam, going to clash with them. A faithful Muslim is the same as a faithful Christian in that they are more likely to be conservative. I believe that is what he is getting at.

Menegrothx, I have to disagree that the situation in Europe is different because America is built on immigration. That changes nothing, as the people in America still segregate themselves by race, religion, class, and all that. That's why major cities have little Italys and Little Asias and the like- homogenous little societies within bigger societies. This has lessened at this point through various movements and changes in thought, but still happens quite often. Blacks don't go into the barrio, hispanics don't go into the ghetto, and whites don't go downtown, as the old saying goes.

[ZeroAX]

Islam is a religion and not an ethnicity and you're borderline retarded if you're trying to state otherwise. There are black African muslims, Indian muslims, North African&Middle-Eastern muslims, Russian&North-Asian muslims, Southeast Asian muslims etc. That's like saying that you're a racist if you criticize Christianity because Christianity is a race.

The fact that you're putting words in my mouth and arguing about a term whose meaning you don't know shows just how clueless you are.

About the second thing: you were the one who said Japan and Korea are doing well cause they don't allow immigrants. I'm not putting words into your mouth.

About the first thing: You are just trolling. Yes the English language doesn't have a word that describes hating a group of people for a specific characteristic that defines them.

Here is the Greek version: http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A1%CE% ... F%8C%CF%82 thankfully it does by adding adjectives in front of the word racism, like:
racial racism (racial is different word than racism in Greek (filetikos rachismos))
religious racism
sex racism
sexual orientation racism

Must I go on?

How anyone can say with a straight face that those things are not bad and being racist only means hating black people is beyond me.

We could use the word descrimination for what you are doing, but it's too light a word for your behavior.

[Menegrothx]

About the second thing: you were the one who said Japan and Korea are doing well cause they don't allow immigrants. I'm not putting words into your mouth.

No I did not. I just pointed out that they are far less multicultural and welcoming to people of other races than European countries are, when you picked them as an example of societies that have been successful because of ability to reform and adapt. I never stated or implied that their homogenous populations are the reason for their success.

About the first thing: You are just trolling. Yes the English language doesn't have a word that describes hating a group of people for a specific characteristic that defines them.

If you have trouble grasping the English language or these concepts then you shouldn't try to argue because you come off as uneducated.
Racism is when you discriminate a person based on their ethnicity. Religious discrimination is not based on the ethnicity of the people who are being discriminated against, but their religion. As I told you, there are people of all different ethnicities who are muslims, and therefore islam isn't exclusive to any particular ethnicity, as the case is with Judaism. Ethnicity is something that you cannot influence, religion or lack there of is.

We could use the word descrimination for what you are doing, but it's too light a word for your behavior.

"What you are doing" "your behavior". What am I doing? All I've done is talked about semantics and the incongruous behavior of atheists who discriminate christians but don't say a word about muslims.

[ZeroAX]

"What you are doing" "your behavior". What am I doing?

Nothing, nothing at all. Actually I would like to thank you. I was really disappointed in my country. You made me realize though that all countries have the same kind of people. Thank you.

[Menegrothx]

That's quite a come back. For your own sake, I recommend reading a book or two every now and then. And an article on fallacies. But I guess some people just regard thinking for themselves as too hard and not worth the trouble