Random Thoughts Thread

[Erik_Twice]

And while Spains problems aren't caused by gypsies, they are in part caused by naive, uneducated leftist who drink the kool aid and gladly submit to economic and cultural suicide for the sake of some pan-European idealism that has nothing to do with an open borders policy.

What do you know? You don't even live here. You know nothing of how Spain or Greece works, stop trying to pretend you do.

And if you ask me the only "cultural suicide" you can commit is thinking in nationalistic terms.

[Menegrothx]

What ideas? Refresh my memory.
I don't see why liberals and leftists have such a hard on for defending islam, while the same people loathe Christianity and social conservatism with a passion, when islamic countries around the world are much more oppressively conservative, misogynistic, "barbaric" and mentally stuck in the dark ages. Even rich countries like Dubai are still very different from the Western world in their mentality
I'm not saying that islam can't change (as was the case in the middle ages) or that all muslims are bad people. But it's you who should be worried about islam if you're a liberal leftist.

And how does all that mean that I would "feel like family with neo nazis"? Then again if you've been conditioned by the media that hard, then it's no point talking to.

What do you know? You don't even live here. You know nothing of how Spain or Greece works, stop trying to pretend you do.

Yes because the only way you know know anything about a country is by living in it. Which is why I've seen you posting a thread criticizing American society and culture.

The background info and little details are different with every country, but the same economic and political principles concern all European countries. All countries really. You're not special or different.

[AppleQueso]

What ideas? Refresh my memory.
I don't see why liberals and leftists have such a hard on for defending islam, while the same people loathe Christianity and social conservatism with a passion, when islamic countries around the world are much more oppressively conservative, misogynistic, "barbaric" and mentally stuck in the dark ages. Even rich countries like Dubai are still very different from the Western world in their mentality
I'm not saying that islam can't change (as was the case in the middle ages) or that all muslims are bad people. But it's you who should be worried about islam if you're a liberal leftist.

It's not a defense of Islam, it's a defense of Muslims. it's speaking out against discrimination based on religion. How one actually feels about the religion in question is irrelevant.

[Menegrothx]

it's speaking out against discrimination based on religion.

I don't recall defending religion based discrimination. If you want to put a halt to mass scale muslim immigration that mostly ends up in poor integration and isn't at all useful to the host country, that does not mean the same thing that you want to discriminate the muslims who already live in your country.

It's not a defense of Islam, it's a defense of Muslims.

Muslims who themselves support discrimination. Why does religious freedom shield people from supporting discriminating ideologies, when science is not a valid reason? I'm not saying that we should support misogyny and homophobia for biological reasons, but I find the idea baffling that religion is some kind of higher authority in this case. Oh you hate women and gays because Flying Spaghetti Monster told you to do so? Well, I guess it's your religion and you have a right to believe in what ever you want. But if you were to back up those arguments with scientific reasons rather then religious claims, that would just be unacceptable.
It's a weird double standard.

[AppleQueso]

I am responding to the "why do leftists rush to defend Islam?" claim in general, not your specific arguments.

I do not defend the institutionalized sexism in many middle eastern theocracies, nor do I defend abhorrent views held by some Muslims or any other groups. I don't have to like anything about Islam (or, again, any other group) to disagree with persecution of those who practice it.

[Menegrothx]

Like I said, I do not defend the persecution of muslims. Just pointing out that many of the attitudes that people have in the Middle East are still held by the younger generation muslims who grew up in Europe, because they aren't properly integrated to society. Hence any one who opposes those ideals should oppose mass muslim immigration.

[Forlorn Drifter]

It's not a defense of Islam, it's a defense of Muslims.

Muslims who themselves support discrimination. Why does religious freedom shield people from supporting discriminating ideologies, when science is not a valid reason? I'm not saying that we should support misogyny and homophobia for biological reasons, but I find the idea baffling that religion is some kind of higher authority in this case. Oh you hate women and gays because Flying Spaghetti Monster told you to do so? Well, I guess it's your religion and you have a right to believe in what ever you want. But if you were to back up those arguments with scientific reasons rather then religious claims, that would just be unacceptable.
It's a weird double standard.

I'd also argue that if your basis is in Christianity, you are viewed even more poorly than any other religion. And save the poor person who is a Christian that believes in evolution...

----
On another note though, I'd be careful about the "preserving our culture" arguments. You know who else uses that argument all the time? Stormfront. Neo-Nazis. The Aryan Brotherhood. Etc.

It is funny watching this from an American view though, seeing as if someone makes one of those arguments over here, they're a racist conservative asshole.

[ZeroAX]

And how does all that mean that I would "feel like family with neo nazis"? Then again if you've been conditioned by the media that hard, then it's no point talking to.

The fact that you said this just proves my point. This to you is a north vs south debate, it's about countries not people. I don't have any problem with any countries and specially no people from any country, nor do I have a special liking to mine just because I come from it (as Dave once said: Hating a country is almost as stupid as loving one).

This is me having a problem with a specific mentality. The racist mentality. You make broad generalizations based on "common truths" that I only see being recreated by racist people, and specially the neo-nazis of my country (you just have different targets).

[oxymoron]

How is loving the country you belong to stupid?

[ZeroAX]

How is loving the country you belong to stupid?

Countries are living breathing "things" that change and evolve. If one sticks too much to tradition and doesn't open his eyes to his faults then he is bound to be overpassed in the global race by others who do.

Look at what's been going on in the global economy. Why are eastern countries about to overtake the west when the west was richer for the past 2 centuries? Because the west got too complacent and didn't reform or make any difficult choices.

Of course you can love your country, but doing it blindly while not knowing it's negative aspects and trying to change them, will lead to its eventual decline.



I guess it's like being a parent. You will love your child unconditionaly, but if you love it so much that you think that's it's always the other "kid's" fault you are bound to end up with a spoiled child who is not the best person he could be.


EDIT

And in general my motto is "Don't be proud of your country, make sure your country is proud that you come from it".

The most succesful people I have met always tend to judge their country more than the less succesful ones who need the group mentality of "we are better than other countries" to feel good about themselves.