Solving sexism in games: Fat/ugly human female characters

[irixith]

This thread should be pinned somewhere for all eternity, so that when someone accuses someone else of "trolling", they can be directed to an example so masterful that they'll never misuse the word again.

[JayJaySut]

I mean just think: Imagine if you reversed the roles in Hey Baby and men were killing women because they wouldn't stop talking that would be the biggest deal on the planet even if it were obviously satire. Look for the most part gamers really aren't hurting anybody.
Why can't games just be left alone if you want better games you need better developers. I feel like if designers and writers were just better sexism wouldn't be a problem because they wouldn't be interested in ridiculous sexual exaggerations unless it was an obvious joke (but wait those are bad too) I guess you just need designers with interests that span further then sex, violence, and other video games. If you give the medium some time to mature (and in many ways it already has, those games just aren't given as much attention)
you'll find that the sexism will pretty much disappear I mean there's no doubt some feminists will still be angry but let's face it they aren't concerned with anything unless it's made by other feminists. Why can't we just play our games with out having to feel ashamed of everything, why can't developers just make games without having to make sure it's not going to offend someone. You're asking an artist (even if they aren't always good ones) to change their work to reflect your worldview which totally misses the point of art in the first place.

[dsheinem]

What makes people so positive the OP is trolling? Their posting history has plenty of misguided ignorance...

[irixith]

What makes people so positive the OP is trolling? Their posting history has plenty of misguided ignorance...

It's all part of the schtick. A master class in trolling 101 -- disarm them with your bumbling ignorance, and then BAM!

[isiolia]

Maybe I'm just a disgusting good for nothing male pig, or perhaps sarcasm is flying over my head, but I really can't tell if you're serious here. Mario's creator is a sexist pig? I really don't think it should be taken as any kind of serious female representation at all, as it's just basic plot device 101 at play. Calling a video game where you have to save a princess "sexist" is ridiculous.

That can be kind of the thing when talking about issues like this though. Points get brought up in an aggressive or snarky way that provokes a knee-jerk reaction, where a different presentation might actually shift opinions.

A lot of what could be addressed with games is changing those "basic plot devices" that, objectively, are sexist because they reenforce gender-based stereotypes. Not that most of them would have started with video games, of course, but they're still there.

Plenty of stories present a lesson, because they're a good way to communicate ideas, right? Well, what is the lesson being taught by hundreds or thousands plots based on princesses needing rescue by a male character?

[pierrot]

I meant to stay away from this thread to begin with, but--

The capacity of people to take satire at face value never fails to astound me.

I'm not sure if this was directed toward me, but my posts haven't been in response to the OP. His posts are fairly clearly bating people into a presumption that games would be somehow boring, or insufficient as entertainment if they took women's grievances into account during the design phase.

Maybe I'm just a disgusting good for nothing male pig, or perhaps sarcasm is flying over my head, but I really can't tell if you're serious here.

It was hyperbole, but here's a problem I see: You seem to be conflating the issue of enjoying games that have moments of sexism, or poorly conceived female roles as heaving some intrinsic bearing on the player's character. Pointing out these issues in popular games isn't pointing out a lack of character in the player himself.

I mean just think: Imagine if you reversed the roles in Hey Baby and men were killing women because they wouldn't stop talking that would be the biggest deal on the planet even if it were obviously satire. Look for the most part gamers really aren't hurting anybody.

Being a voluntary party to a relationship that involves insignificant levels of harassment, and being involuntarily harassed on the street by strangers are not equivalent.


These discussions typically seem to go nowhere, so here's a final thought:

tl;dr - Stop thinking of the issue as parties of victims and villains. Start considering how over-sexualized representations of genders can be harmful (yes, even to men) and a barrier to entry for certain people. This is not limited solely to video games, but in the context of this website, yeah, it kinda is.

[Retrogamer0001]

I meant to stay away from this thread to begin with, but--

The capacity of people to take satire at face value never fails to astound me.

I'm not sure if this was directed toward me, but my posts haven't been in response to the OP. His posts are fairly clearly bating people into a presumption that games would be somehow boring, or insufficient as entertainment if they took women's grievances into account during the design phase.

Maybe I'm just a disgusting good for nothing male pig, or perhaps sarcasm is flying over my head, but I really can't tell if you're serious here.

It was hyperbole, but here's a problem I see: You seem to be conflating the issue of enjoying games that have moments of sexism, or poorly conceived female roles as heaving some intrinsic bearing on the player's character. Pointing out these issues in popular games isn't pointing out a lack of character in the player himself.

I mean just think: Imagine if you reversed the roles in Hey Baby and men were killing women because they wouldn't stop talking that would be the biggest deal on the planet even if it were obviously satire. Look for the most part gamers really aren't hurting anybody.

Being a voluntary party to a relationship that involves insignificant levels of harassment, and being involuntarily harassed on the street by strangers are not equivalent.


These discussions typically seem to go nowhere, so here's a final thought:

tl;dr - Stop thinking of the issue as parties of victims and villains. Start considering how over-sexualized representations of genders can be harmful (yes, even to men) and a barrier to entry for certain people. This is not limited solely to video games, but in the context of this website, yeah, it kinda is.

[pierrot]

base_childishness.jpg

I do.
Apparently you think that by covering your ears and closing your eyes, everything disappears. So, next time I'll just make a sock-puppet presentation to appease your delicate sensibilities.

Good day, sir.

[Retrogamer0001]

base_childishness.jpg

I do.
Apparently you think that by covering your ears and closing your eyes, everything disappears. So, next time I'll just make a sock-puppet presentation to appease your delicate sensibilities.

Good day, sir.

Look, I think the majority of posters here agree that this is a ridiculous, dramatic, over-stated topic that only someone with brain damage could see the value of. You want to examine sexism in video games? Great! Go write a doctorate thesis on the subject (looking at your replies so far, you're at least halfway there already). If you're looking for "sexism", if can be easily found in every facet our society, and that includes all forms of media and religion.

It is my experience that people see what they want to see regardless of whether or not it's there, so go ahead, crucify gaming as a platform that encourages gender inequality. I personally think that the majority of what you're saying is insane - the fact that Mario goes about saving a princess is sexist? Well, what if the princess had to save Mario? Isn't that sexist too? More importantly, who in the name of God would care about such an inane, opinionated, pointless argument? Sexism exists in video games? Well, so what, it exists everywhere else too!

[Hobie-wan]

Look, I think the majority of posters here agree that this is a ridiculous, dramatic, over-stated topic that only someone with brain damage could see the value of.

There are a lot of people that think this thread is a cesspool of stupidity and are choosing not to post. A few have tried to steer the wreck into better seas with best intentions. Others are just taking note of the ones that are choosing to have a foot lunch up on stage for everyone to see.

Apparently you think that by covering your ears and closing your eyes, everything disappears.

*golf clap*