Solving sexism in games: Fat/ugly human female characters

[Menegrothx]

Big Mutha Truckers

I can't think of any overtly ugly main cast/party member female characters that aren't villains (ie not an old hag/witch), but I know some that aren't particularly attractive. April Ryan, the lead character of The Longest Journey. Annah and Fall from Grace (she breaks many succubus stereotypes, and is quite a far cry from those of other RPGs, such as World of Warcraft, Disgaea or the Darkstalkers fighting games) from Planescape: Torment, both of which are party members. Though those two are the best written adventure game and best written RPG of all time respectively, so that is to be expected. Oh and then there's Alice from American McGee's Alice and Alice: Madness Returns. Then there's Chie and Naoto of Persona 4 (and there are more "normal looking", non eyecandy female characters in the Shin Megami Tensei&Persona-series games). There are more such characters in other point&click adventures and RPGs that I can't remember at the moment or haven't played, but these are just some of the more memorable/prominent female characters that I can think of at the moment.

Generally it's a problem with writing. Nintendo games and AAA titles don't bother with that shit. Find a game that focuses on writing and intresting characters like Longest Journey, and you'll find female characters that aren't just eyecandy.







None of these are really hideous, especially Persona characters are all stylish and sleek. But all of them (with the exception of Alice, it's an action platformer so it doesn't have a deep story) have personality and character and aren't just useless sex objects.

[GodofHardcore]

It's honestly a very small part of a much bigger overall societal issue. It's not something you can just be like "Hey we'll do X, that'll solve everything."

Simply working on increasing awareness and trying to change attitudes and perceptions is the best way of approaching it I think.

That's a pretty safe, unsatisfying and non-descript answer but I'll let you off this time.

I like the sweet, quite, nice girl Yuna in FF X. Not the completely out of character, gun toting, bimbo, pop princess character she was in FF X-2. Personality goes a long way towards making someone attractive or unattractive too, course it's all subjective

There are two points that can be made here:

1) Whatever your opinions about personality, 99% of heterosexual males would think both Yunas are physically attractive.

2) Would you still say the same thing if Yuna was a massively obese landwhale? Would you still find Yuna attractive if she was, to use your words, sweet, quiet, nice, and to use my words, massively obese?

This whole thing that women are over sexualized in video games is fucking stupid. All of it exists in every other form of media and was there a couple hundred years before video games. All these tropes, princesses needing rescued as an example, were around a hell of a lot longer then video games.

Yeah, I think this exact retort was used against Anita Sarkeesian's Tropes vs Women video.

You think Romeo and Juliette would have gone over so well if Juliette was some kind of 300 pound beast with a hunchback, a lazy eye and had a leg amputated due to poor circulation? No?

How WOULD the story end if Juliet was a hunchback mutant?

[dsheinem]

I've been watching Anita Sarkeesian's YouTube videos as well as other feminism-related videos and I have completely missed their point.

FTFY

[Gamerforlife]

One has to also consider the narrative importance of a character's appearance. Having lots of "ugly" females would just seem very odd to people if there wasn't a reason for it. You look at Tyrion Lannister in Game of Thrones and his physical unnattractiveness is a key part of his character and story.

Also, while you can say that most people in society aren't the physical ideals presented in media. You could also say that most people you see during any typical day aren't outright ugly. So populating games with lots of intentionally designed ugly females would not exactly seem realistic. Perhaps "normal" looking is something better to strive for.

[GodofHardcore]

Big Mutha Truckers

That's disgusting. We need more of those!

The other 3D examples you give I think has less to do with intentionally making them ugly and more to do with immature 3D modelling technology/skills. The second example is a brunette/redhead with decent size tits and body. The third example is your typical blond. At the very least, they're not fat. Anyway, every 1990s 3D character are ugly, unintentionally so.

Then there's Chie and Naoto of Persona 4 (and there are more "normal looking", non eyecandy female characters in the Shin Megami Tensei&Persona-series games). There are more such characters in other point&click adventures and RPGs that I can't remember at the moment or haven't played, but these are just some of the more memorable/prominent female characters that I can think of at the moment.

I'm going to have to disagree with Chie. I haven't played the game but she's a sporty tomboy with a fit body. I know because I've seen the hentai. As for Naoto, he's sexually ambiguous but definitely not unattractive or ugly. Anyway, they're both slim and sleek as you said.

Also, while you can say that most people in society aren't the physical ideals presented in media. You could also say that most people you see during any typical day aren't outright ugly. So populating games with lots of intentionally designed ugly females would not exactly seem realistic. Perhaps "normal" looking is something better to strive for.

As long as we accept that feminists will still be complaining about those "normal" looking female "sex objects" because male gamers WILL continue to masturbate to her.

Which begs the question: what does a normal female character look like? One that doesn't look ugly but at the same time, not good looking enough to masturbate to/outrage the feminists?

[Damm64]

I guess that proves my point (to Damm64) that there are attractive and ugly male main characters which is why men don't complain about sexism. And as you pointed out, men only complain about sexism against men as a defense mechanis, against women complaining about sexism against men. Men are only complaining about sexism to spite feminists. That's why we should be focusing on more ugly female characters.

Women still complain about sexism because there are only attractive female main characters which leads to my solution: more ugly female main characters.

Or maybe there are more male developers than female developers and a male cannot represent a female in a fair way?

I know beauty is subjective but you couldn't have picked a worse example. Yes again, beauty is subjective but Yuna has nice hair, a nice slim body, nice legs, decent face and nice rack. There are plenty of hentai drawings of her which is proof of her attractiveness.

Maybe but this is the internet, you can found hentai/porn of EVERYTHING.

Actually my opinion is that society has very clear indications of what is or isn't an attractive female while it has unclear indications of what is or isn't an attractive male.

I believe that everything that is in the "beauty" magazines is what society thinks of beauty, or what the magazines want's you to think.

Okay, I accept that line of reasoning.

Thanks

Where's the option for, "there should be an equal number of each"

How are you going to get an equal number of each in the first place? By increasing the number of ugly female characters and lowering the number of attractive ones.

If your goal is equal numbers of ugly and attractive females, then that necessitates increasing the number of uglies and lowering the number of good-lookers. So you would choose the first option.

There's no way to make every one happy, there's gonna be always that one person or group that will "find" something wrong.

I've been watching Anita Sarkeesian's YouTube videos as well as other feminism-related videos and I have completely missed their point.

FTFY

There's a point on those videos?

[GodofHardcore]

I've been watching Anita Sarkeesian's YouTube videos as well as other feminism-related videos and I have completely missed their point.

FTFY

Could you give me cliff notes version of her point then?

[flex wood]

This whole thing that women are over sexualized in video games is fucking stupid. All of it exists in every other form of media and was there a couple hundred years before video games. All these tropes, princesses needing rescued as an example, were around a hell of a lot longer then video games.

Yeah, I think this exact retort was used against Anita Sarkeesian's Tropes vs Women video.

And you obviously don't understand why it was then do you? There is no point in analyzing only video games for these issues because since video games are a relatively new medium when the same "issues" have existed for the last couple of thousand years.

Why not look at sexism in the bible? Or any other holy book? Because if you want to find out about an issue you usually try to look at where it started not its most recent point of interest. Unless you are going for tabloid level journalism which Anita Sarkeesian obviously is.

Edit I'm not saying the bible started sexism just one of the oldest things I could think of. Calm down people.

[dsheinem]

I've been watching Anita Sarkeesian's YouTube videos as well as other feminism-related videos and I have completely missed their point.

FTFY

Could you give me cliff notes version of her point then?

Sure: treat all people with respect.

[GodofHardcore]

Maybe but this is the internet, you can found hentai/porn of EVERYTHING.

That's true. Actually, I happen to be an expert on Hentai. There are two kinds of hentai:

1) Joke hentai
2) Serious hentai

A joke hentai is a sexual picture of a character done just for fun or for laughs.

A serious hentai is a sexual picture of a character done for the sole purpose of the main purpose being a masturbating aid.

Sure, you'll find joke hentai of many things not MANY hentai of A thing. In order for something to have a lot of hentai drawn for it, that thing needs to be reasonably attractive. I'm talking about attractive females like Tifa from FF7 or Peach from Super Mario.

Anyway, I'm only using the popularity of a character in hentai as an indication of his or her attractiveness.

Beauty is subjective. But only to a point. Eventually, you will have to admit that there is a difference between Tifa and Shrek.

This whole thing that women are over sexualized in video games is fucking stupid. All of it exists in every other form of media and was there a couple hundred years before video games. All these tropes, princesses needing rescued as an example, were around a hell of a lot longer then video games.

Yeah, I think this exact retort was used against Anita Sarkeesian's Tropes vs Women video.

And you obviously don't understand why it was then do you? There is no point in analyzing only video games for these issues because since video games are a relatively new medium when the same "issues" have existed for the last couple of thousand years.

Calm down. I was only pointing out that that retort was used elsewhere. Not making a judgment on that retort.