Random Thoughts Thread

[MrPopo]

I don't know, documented cases and actual cases may have a wide variance.

And the government may have assassinated JFK and planned 9-11. You're positing that there has been a potentially huge conspiracy of voter fraud across the history of our country but only a handful of actual cases have been found.

[dsheinem]

But this is a really pointless debate I didn't want to get this far into. Dave is very entrenched into his democrat beliefs and we aren't going to sway each other.

Since you aren't really offering much more than "I think" rebuttals I'll drop it.

That said, I just want to say that I'm not blindly parroting party lines or something. I'd not engage in debate if I didn't think it was useful in helping me see new points of view as well as offer them to others. My choice of a preferred political party has always come after a carefully considered choice of what I believe is good and fair social policy, not before. There are certainly some issues for which I am sympathetic with or in favor of the Republican party's official platform (well at least of those of the Republican party of the late 20th Century if not today), and if anything I probably spend more time talking to people about how stupid and spineless the Democrats are than I do about Republicans.

[Jmustang1968]

I don't know, documented cases and actual cases may have a wide variance.

And the government may have assassinated JFK and planned 9-11. You're positing that there has been a potentially huge conspiracy of voter fraud across the history of our country but only a handful of actual cases have been found.

I am? No I am not... I am just stating what has been documented doesn't necessarily reflect how much it happens.

Maybe a poor anology, but it's like counting how many people speed by who has received a ticket. I would imagine the true number being more than what the democrats believe and less than what the republicans let on.

[Jmustang1968]

But this is a really pointless debate I didn't want to get this far into. Dave is very entrenched into his democrat beliefs and we aren't going to sway each other.

Since you aren't really offering much more than "I think" rebuttals I'll drop it.

That said, I just want to say that I'm not blindly parroting party lines or something. I'd not engage in debate if I didn't think it was useful in helping me see new points of view as well as offer them to others. My choice of a preferred political party has always come after a carefully considered choice of what I believe is good and fair social policy, not before. There are certainly some issues for which I am sympathetic with or in favor of the Republican party's official platform (well at least of those of the Republican party of the late 20th Century if not today), and if anything I probably spend more time talking to people about how stupid and spineless the Democrats are than I do about Republicans.

Isn't almost all political philosophy about what one thinks? If I were inclined to make the effort, I could go out and dig up some data or sources and spin it in a way to make a case for almost anything. Lawyers and politicians have been making a living out of doing just that for years.

In the end I am too lazy and too jaded at this point to care to do so. For better or worse your vote and my vote and joe moron down the streets vote counts all the same. I know of people who will vote the more attractive candidate from their campaign photo. So most of this discussion is just academic to me as I don't see it having much of an impact. Overall not worth getting all worked up about.

[dsheinem]

But this is a really pointless debate I didn't want to get this far into. Dave is very entrenched into his democrat beliefs and we aren't going to sway each other.

Since you aren't really offering much more than "I think" rebuttals I'll drop it.

That said, I just want to say that I'm not blindly parroting party lines or something. I'd not engage in debate if I didn't think it was useful in helping me see new points of view as well as offer them to others. My choice of a preferred political party has always come after a carefully considered choice of what I believe is good and fair social policy, not before. There are certainly some issues for which I am sympathetic with or in favor of the Republican party's official platform (well at least of those of the Republican party of the late 20th Century if not today), and if anything I probably spend more time talking to people about how stupid and spineless the Democrats are than I do about Republicans.

If I were inclined to make the effort, I could go out and dig up some data or sources and spin it in a way to make a case for almost anything. Lawyers and politicians have been making a living out of doing just that for years.

And getting results and changes by doing so. I get that it is an argument that you don't care about, but if you are going to jump in and state your opinion/what you think you should be prepared to substantiate those claims or you will have an unsupported and weaker argument.

In the end I am too lazy and too jaded at this point to care to do so. For better or worse your vote and my vote and joe moron down the streets vote counts all the same. I know of people who will vote the more attractive candidate from their campaign photo. So most of this discussion is just academic to me as I don't see it having much of an impact. Overall not worth getting all worked up about.

Even if you don't believe small/local discussion of politics matters (even online), there are many instances in history that refute that assumption. Hell, if I can get Joe Moron down the street to recognize that voting for a party because "Voter ID is important to my safety" is a stupid idea and thus have him change his mind and vote for a policy or candidate that I think is a better one, then some good has come out of the discussion. People need to be more engaged in politics, not less. If you are apathetic and jaded, you are part of the problem.

[Retrodude]

I probably spend more time talking to people about how stupid and spineless the Democrats are than I do about Republicans.

Party aside, conservatives play dirty and progressives aren't willing to do the same to defeat them because they actually have a conscience. That's why they're the good guys and it's also why it seems like they don't do anything to stop the worst abuses. They can't. Their morals won't allow them to do what would be necessary to keep the conservatives in check (i.e. fight fire with fire and give them a taste of their own medicine). Unfortunately, the conservatives know this and more than one person has noted that NC has become a cautionary tale, a warning to all the other states about what will happen if they allow far-right politicians to gain control of all three branches as we did. Can you imagine if the whole country was like NC? What a terrifying thought.

[Blu]

J, I wasn't placating to either side, and I vote without affiliation to any political party. In a perfect system, it makes sense to have a one ID, one vote voting process. But I think the details really bog down the implementation of this system, and it's easier for those who have the privileged means to obtain a state issued ID. It's an arduous task for some especially given the context and distrust some identities have with the government. It doesn't help when you're trying to change the culture of voter-turnout.

That being said, maybe Mr. Popo and others might be able to interject with their technological prowess. If you were using a state voter-ID system, it makes sense that you'd pull it off of an online database with everyone's name who is registered to vote within a district. I wonder what the resistance nation-wide would be to states switching to a digital system, and the possible security risks that would rise. We could put ballot counting into the figurative hands of computers, with instant calculations.

The real issues I see with are still prevalent: in NC's case, having the Tobacco companies line the pockets of politicians and other lobbyists while the people are none the better. There's no reason why a local government and community shouldn't be able to enact no smoking legislation. There's no reason why a state should be able to gerrymander districts in favor to a specific party. Eliminating state income tax drives some nails in the coffin too. Good luck North Carolina!

I think the problem the United States has in its political system (and life in general) is mistaking comfort for happiness. If sweeping changes were enacted to kick out the corporate interest that is so prevalent in system, and limit further interactions companies have with our government. I think the current group of legislators across the board has lost its way and do not represent well the people they were elected to represent. Right now so many governmental services provide comfort, but do not allow for the pursuit of happiness, merely keeping many where they are without much mobility. Look at social services provided with tax dollars, crippling federal student loan debt that came with near assurance of having a good paying job upon graduation. There's plenty of systemic policies in place that don't allow for much social/economic mobility.

[Jmustang1968]

I simply don't have the time or want to take the time. It would take a ton of effort and time to be as educated as I would want to be about such things.

The arguments on internet forums backed up with a link or 2 hold up just as much weight to me. As I know I can spend 30 min to an hour digging up something to refute it.

Sure they get results but it is mostly the perception of reality or just being a convincing person. This is basically the basis of my skepticism of a biased if maybe just slightly editorial with very little depth or context.

[Jmustang1968]

I probably spend more time talking to people about how stupid and spineless the Democrats are than I do about Republicans.

Party aside, conservatives play dirty and progressives aren't willing to do the same to defeat them because they actually have a conscience. That's why they're the good guys and it's also why it seems like they don't do anything to stop the worst abuses. They can't. Their morals won't allow them to do what would be necessary to keep the conservatives in check (i.e. fight fire with fire and give them a taste of their own medicine). Unfortunately, the conservatives know this and more than one person has noted that NC has become a cautionary tale, a warning to all the other states about what will happen if they allow far-right politicians to gain control of all three branches as we did. Can you imagine if the whole country was like NC? What a terrifying thought.

Haha wow. This is naive and sounds like some childhood fairy tale. You really believe this?? Posts like this are why I can't the stuff you say seriously.

[AppleQueso]

It's Retrodude...