The cost of making Dustforce

[Ivo]

I found this article interesting and I think some of you may as well
I found it because it was highlighted by PAR

http://hitboxteam.com/dustforce-sales-figures

I have some questions here.

on average, it would cost us around $20k per person per year to live frugally.

Their estimated 20k USD per person per year for "frugal" living expenses corresponds to over 1.6k USD per person per month. Particularly given some replies given by the devs give some additional detail I just don't understand that figure.

Apparently (I'm not sure) that value doesn't even include into those costs the full cost of individual rent (living in parents' houses first and then possibly the 4 of them sharing accommodation, meaning they probably don't count a full individual rent per person into the 1.6k). They also apparently were not paying costs of health insurance (covered by parents' policies) out of those 1.6k (the comment where I infer this from is in the spoiler tag).

Lexie (one of the two guys who made the prototype) had a full time job when they were creating the prototype. After they won the contest, they lived off of the prize money for as long as possible.
We all quit our jobs to work on the game full time. We cut expenses by living in parents' houses, and later on together. Most of us are from Australia, so medical care wasn't a big cost, and are also young enough to still be on our parents insurance plans. We didn't really have many costs other than living, eating, and internet. We basically just worked most of the 1.5 years.

Now please don't misunderstand me, I'm not criticising their living expenses for being excessive or anything like that. In the article they comment (and rightfully) they very well could have "regular jobs" and derive from there a better salary (I certainly think they have talent), so I'm personally glad they chose to make a good indie game instead, at what I certainly consider to be a personal cost to them (but they loved doing it, so win-win). So they could very likely have a higher living standard than what they had while doing Dustforce.

I just don't get how 1.6k USD a month in living expenses per person counts as frugal and was curious as to what others here that are perhaps more knowledgeable about life and living expenses than me think about that.

Is everyone here even making as much per month as salary (much less spending that every month)?

[dsheinem]

I just don't get how 1.6k USD a month in living expenses per person counts as frugal and was curious as to what others here that are perhaps more knowledgeable about life and living expenses than me think about that.

A big part of whether or not that's a reasonable amount to live frugally depends on where you live. In some places, $1000 a month might net you a small studio apartment, in others you might be able to rent a large house with lots of land. Considering they claim to have team members in large cities, I'd say it is a safe bet that the majority of that 1.6K goes to housing. Even if you are single, food and transportation in most cities can easily run you $20 a day on average, or another $600 a month.

So yeah, I can easily see the argument that $20K a year net is living frugally. It is well below the "poverty line" as well, I believe.

[jinx]

I haven't read the whole article yet, as I'm at work, but skimming over it seems really interesting. I was actually just thinking about this after watching "Indie Game: The Movie".

However, 1.6K a month sounds about right to me. I have a family, so maybe my opinion is a little skewed, but if I were to take into account:
Rent, Car Insurance, Gas, Utilities, Groceries, Fast Food <=big one, Internet/TV/Entertainment costs, Cellphone, etc

Then I would say that's about right. It may not necessarily be "frugal", but it's just barely comfortable. I know you said they might not have had to pay for all of those, but there are still times where you hit bumps in the road and need extra cash.

Working at BestBuy, that's about what I made. Living on my own was pretty tough, and barely any money made it into my savings. After establishing a family, it made it way harder to get buy, even with the added income. I would say that I was living "frugal" back then.

I know make about twice as much, and I'm living comfortably. Money is going into savings, food is on the table every night, and I can still enjoy my hobbies. I think one of the biggest parts in play, is how much are they spending on the "shelter" part. That's the biggest chunk of change, and depending on where they live (What City? With parents? With room-mates?) can have the biggest impact on their finances.

EDIT:
Crap, dsheinem beat me to it...
What he said.

[Erik_Twice]

Besides being a poor alternative compared to just being a programmer or working in graphic design, the biggest problem is that they don't have any job security. One office bomb and it's all over because they can't recover.

[Ivo]

I'm sorry, I still don't see it! The minimum wage in Portugal is well below 1k EUR (currently the exchange rate is 1 Eur = 1.3 USD). I don't know how well you can do in Australia where they apparently based themselves from eventually, but from some of my personal experience in short periods in the US if you really want to live frugally, in the US you have more options than in Portugal* (I don't know much about the cost of rent in different places in the US though).

* I am thinking of extremely cheap stuff like the infamous ramen noodles you have there. I never saw anything so ridiculous cheap and comparable in Europe.

I'm not saying anyone should be eating exclusively ramen noodles to be able to claim they live frugally (that can't be healthy). But if people can live with minimum wage in Portugal then I find it really hard to imagine not being able to live with some dignity in the US for less than 1k USD a month.

Maybe part of what I don't understand is that they apparently consider these 1.6k per month per person "living expenses". If they called it a frugal salary it would have been better, as then I would count they are including saving some fraction of it for the (uncertain) future. This is more than fair, as Norris mentions correctly they have awful job security and no benefits.

Dave: my first idea was that these guys were possibly paying expensive rent and had no real options to save on rent, because they mentioned living in different places I ruled out joining together to save on rent. I know how that goes and expensive rent sucks. But then in the comments section is the part where they say they were living with parents* and then did precisely move in to save on rent! So that is a big part of why I can't understand their figures.

* Maybe they were contributing to their parents' rent though, in which case, more power to them as that is IMO very respectful of them.

Also there is no mention of those living expenses sustaining someone else, so unlike Jinx they are not paying for food for someone else out of those 1.6k
(also, if by fast food you meant eating out, eating out I would generally not consider living frugally).

Regarding transportation: giving they are self-employed and working from home, I don't think it is easy to justify high transportation costs without going out of the definition of "frugal". For people that need to commute to work, I could see it though.

I looked up the poverty line for America for these years and for a single person is is almost half those 20k per year.

So I can only say I still don't get it. But I appreciate your comments.

[jinx]

I was really only adding my personal experience in.

Living on my own, I was making around 1.2k a month. Living in an apartment with a room-mate I was spending about $600 on rent alone, plus utilities brought it up between $650 to $750. That leaves me with $450. Then lets add in phone bill (for emergencies), gas money and frugal food spending. That's $250-300. That only left me with $150 of emergency money, but it would usually be less than that because of unseen problems (something would break). I was bumming a car, so I didn't have to pay for insurance at the time, but car insurance for me is a little less than $200 a month. That would have been ALL of my money gone.

I eventually had to start paying car insurance, and we moved in with her parents. I'm not sure how it is over there, but there's not many kids "freeloading" off their parents where I'm from. My mom wanted rent, my dad wanted rent, and her parents wanted rent. It was significantly less, but adding in car insurance, I was still saving just as little money as before. It wasn't until we added in a second income that everything started feeling "comfortable".

[dsheinem]

If they aren't paying housing/utility costs then yeah, $1600 a month is well beyond what you'd need to live frugally. Still, I'd guess that transportation and food costs could still easily be $15-$20 a day on average ($5-$6 for public transport or more if you need to drive/insurance/etc., $10 per day for food, etc.) then you are getting closer to about half the figure quoted. If you pay for cell service, the internet, or even minimal going out it is easy to creep close to $1K and still be in "frugal" territory.

Put another way, full time minimum wage work would net you about $1K a month, and most can't live independently on that...especially in major cities.

[Ivo]

I think they were paying at least the internet costs, and possibly contributing to rent / utilities even when they were at their parents house. But if they are not paying full rent I think 1.6k is a bit too high to count as frugal. It certainly isn't luxurious, and as a salary (rather than the actual expenses) it is on the low side given all the circumstances mentioned. Probably they meant that figure as a salary, really.

Anyway, other than this (thanks for the clarifications) I think the article is pretty interesting.

For reference, the poverty line in Portugal is apparently about 5000 Eur i.e. quite a bit lower than the one in the US.

[dsheinem]

I think they were paying at least the internet costs, and possibly contributing to rent / utilities even when they were at their parents house. But if they are not paying full rent I think 1.6k is a bit too high to count as frugal. It certainly isn't luxurious, and as a salary (rather than the actual expenses) it is on the low side given all the circumstances mentioned. Probably they meant that figure as a salary, really.

Anyway, other than this (thanks for the clarifications) I think the article is pretty interesting.

Turns out that $20K a year is almost double the federal poverty rate for 1 person

http://www.wnyc.org/articles/wnyc-news/ ... -year-row/

Still, $11.5K a year for one person is much more "feasible" in some areas than it is in others. I've lived places where $400 a month nets me a nice one bedroom apartment. By contrast, in some cities you'd struggle to find an apartment that you could split up equally with others for $400 per person. NYC (in parts and as a whole, I believe) has the highest cost of living in the US: http://www.coli.org/ReleaseHighlights.asp

[Erik_Twice]

I'm sorry, I still don't see it! The minimum wage in Portugal is well below 1k EUR (currently the exchange rate is 1 Eur = 1.3 USD).

A note, the cost of living isn't proportional to exchange rates between different currencies. Your eurosalary is worth more than the dollarsalary equivalent.