How are we supposed to collect games in the future?

Anything that is gaming related that doesn't fit well anywhere else
Ivo
Next-Gen
Posts: 3627
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:24 am
Location: Portugal

Re: How are we supposed to collect games in the future?

Post by Ivo »

Retronomy wrote:I have games on Cassette Tape and 5inch soft floppy that are in near perfect, and readable, condition. Conversely, console situations (like the original xbox live arcade), and previous digital game distributors have died off. I feel this is a pretty good testament to the longevity of Physical vs Digital.
I don't doubt that can be the case, but do those particular medium are rather fragile and hard to back-up statistically. Plus, you also have the drives in good condition? You actually trust those games and the respective players to continue readable (presumably you have some others that have become unreadable)? I was just recently checking some 3 inch floppies and although I could salvage some of the stuff, some was gone. And the stuff I salvaged was a pain - had I done the proper thing and stored it first in a Hard Drive, passed into CDs, then into flash memory I would have all of it and would have given me less trouble overall I think.
The argument that you provide, Ivo, is essentially that if left in it's current state from now till the end of time, then yes, digital would last longer.

But I could say that if for some reason my physical products were in a completely sterile environment, say, oh, a vacuum of space, I could say the same thing.
You would have to store them pretty deep underground as well because of radiation.
But neither of those situations are real life. You're entrusting your games, which for all intents and purposes you hardly even own, to another entity that can and at will withdraw, change and manipulate said games.
This is a different issue, that Steam is basically a rental service rather than a store (even though it may not look like it at first).
When steam is gone, your games are gone.
Because it is a rental in practice. There are 2 big ways to see that you don't really own the game: you can not trade it to some other Steam account and there is no policy guaranteeing that you can keep the game somehow in the case the service goes down.
When Xbox is gone, your arcade is gone.
When your Wii is gone, your games are gone.
I am not entirely sure about this as I don't have either and haven't read the Terms, but I think you are incorrect (but it may be that I'm incorrect, in each case I would like to learn about the specifics).

What I think is the case is that if I have an Xbox and a Wii with games and they malfunction, I can restore my games on a different console by going through a non-trivial process and contacting Microsoft / Nintendo. I.e. it is a bother but it is possible (and it is a bother to stop people from abusing the process, e.g. to "duplicate" their collection into a friend and keeping the original working one, etc.)

Conversely, I could sell my Xbox and Wii with the downloaded games and the new owner would in the future be able to do the same if that (2nd hand) console malfunctions. Or is this wrong?
When the servers that authenticate your games die, so do your games.

Do you see a theme here, yet?
All of these situations eventually are beyond your control. And that is the problem.
I don't think this is the case in general, and as such it is not a problem with digital but a problem with particular implementations of digital "sales" (or perhaps one should say "rentals"). There is a theme, but it is not tied with digital collections, only with the specific services.

With GoG (which is the service I use and know a bit better), you actually OWN the game at least to a very good approximation and that is not the case. There aren't authentication servers, you can keep a local backup, and in principle they would even warn people in advance were they to shut down the service (but I wouldn't be surprised if they wouldn't, to save on the rush and bandwidth costs associated with it).

The only issue GoG can have in terms of collectibles is that their goal is not to create collectibles but to make the game available to whoever wants them. This means the print run is not limited in theory (although I guess it is in practice). Some collectors find that unappealing, but regardless I think there are other collectors who don't care about that print run being limited if their collection has innate value regardless (which I would really say it does, in GoG's case).
Meanwhile, so long as the rare natural disaster doesn't happen, my commodore 64 cassettes are going to STILL be there, likely still in readable form.
Fires and thefts are not so rare (although probably people wouldn't steal your cassettes I guess). From my own (recent) experience with floppies from the mid 90s I wouldn't bet on the majority of your tapes from the 80s being still readable. Have you checked recently?
Of course, the ultimate solution to all of this is to support piracy.
But don't do that because that's illegal.
:wink:
I do find it very funny how pirates had such a huge (IMO positive) contribution in preserving so many games in a usable form.

I wish the game makers themselves took more care to preserve things. In fact I hope that by going digital (and thus eliminating issues such as "shelf-space") this is increasingly going to be the case. In GoG, Steam, Live Arcade, PSN and WiiWare you can get the vast majority of the games even if they were put there years ago (there are a few notable exceptions that got pulled for one reason or another). Apparently with WiiU, Nintendo lets you transfer your WiiWare Wii games to the WiiU WiiWare free of charge (even though they charge you if you want the WiiU wiiware versions with some improvements or whatever, but that is a different issue).

Ivo.
brainerdrainer
32-bit
Posts: 258
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:52 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: How are we supposed to collect games in the future?

Post by brainerdrainer »

Yeah I'm not really into this new gaming stuff. The newest console I own is a PS2. I grew up with the NES and I can't imagine owning digital copies of anything. Maybe it's just me, I'm stuck with the retro games and consoles, they make me happy. After that maybe I'll start collecting Pinball machines and arcade cabinets. That's what I REALLY want
User avatar
dunpeal2064
Next-Gen
Posts: 5350
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:55 pm
Location: Central Valley, California
Contact:

Re: How are we supposed to collect games in the future?

Post by dunpeal2064 »

@Ivo: With the Wii, the purchases are console-locked. There is no online account. As far as I know, the only way to (legally) get them back is to contact Nintendo.

With the 360 you can re-download any games/dlc that you've already purchased, you just have to transfer the license as well. No need to contact Microsoft at all, which is the way it should be.


I have never tried to contact Nintendo, but considering there is no proof that you bought VC/WiiWare, I would assume that they have to take your word for it. So, it actually opens them up to have more instances of "duplication" than Microsoft would have to worry about, as license transfers make sure that you can only play your downloaded content on one system at a time, and you can only transfer licenses a limited amount of times a year.

Plus, when Nintendo stops supporting the Wii, there is a chance that they won't care to restore your old VC/WW titles. Granted, at that point you could just go the pirate route and install the channels yourself.
User avatar
Retronomy
32-bit
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:03 am
Location: Colorado, USA
Contact:

Re: How are we supposed to collect games in the future?

Post by Retronomy »

I will concede that in the case of DRM-Free game releases, such as with GOG, longevity is ensured to those that care for it. You'll get no argument from me there. But this is not the norm for digital distribution and I have doubts that it ever will be.

I wouldn't go so far to say that Digital items aren't collectible. Just look at any modern music junkie. I don't think scarcity has to be a factor in order for something to be collectible. I have a fairly extensive rom collection, for example, that I add to semi-frequently. Archived and organized in an accessible manor.

As for the Wii, loss of WW/VC games are somewhat rare, with most of them being tied to transfer to Wii U games, at which point Nintendo thus far has been a good sport about. They don't exactly restore the games, as they have no clue what you have. What they do is credit you back the money you spent and you're free to purchase the games you see fit. In one case I saw they gave another 50$ worth of Wii points for the inconvenience. Of course, after a certain point support for the Wii will seize, this is the nature of things.

Also, yes, my cassette games still work. As do my music cassettes :p Really, the 5 inch floppies are what you have to worry about, as the first party floppy drives for the C64 were death traps.
http://retrofiends.com My terrible retro video game reviews blog.
User avatar
garrett123
64-bit
Posts: 429
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:47 pm

Re: How are we supposed to collect games in the future?

Post by garrett123 »

I always imagined someone would say


Look at this game I have its ver1.0

wow thats the first version

when the game is on version 5.0 or something like that.
Hazerd
Next-Gen
Posts: 3395
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 5:40 pm

Re: How are we supposed to collect games in the future?

Post by Hazerd »

dunpeal2064 wrote:@Ivo: With the Wii, the purchases are console-locked. There is no online account. As far as I know, the only way to (legally) get them back is to contact Nintendo.

This is why i enjoy Physical media and Mod a console/handheld when i can.

http://kotaku.com/5982965/nintendo-fan- ... -u-problem
Image
Ivo
Next-Gen
Posts: 3627
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:24 am
Location: Portugal

Re: How are we supposed to collect games in the future?

Post by Ivo »

Thanks Dunpeal for the clarifications. I thought it would go somewhat like that. So basically for Wii you can actually easily sell your games - you just have to sell the console, conversely to recover them when the console breaks is non-trivial; the reverse goes for Xbox Live, where recovering them is easy, but to sell them I guess you pass your account to someone else (which I guess will still have your name attached to the account nonetheless, meaning in theory you could screw them later by proving your identity to Microsoft which is not ideal).
Retronomy wrote:I will concede that in the case of DRM-Free game releases, such as with GOG, longevity is ensured to those that care for it. You'll get no argument from me there. But this is not the norm for digital distribution and I have doubts that it ever will be.
I don't dispute it is the norm, but people were (at least implicitly) pointing this out as a problem of digital and it is not a question of digital vs. physical.
When you think about it, it is also the norm for physical distribution, it is just the "authentication" is built into consoles. Even on the PC some physical distributions also had limited install numbers.

As for the norm changing or not I can't say. I think it is hard for it to change when the vast majority of people don't care.

I mostly play my games as rentals, it is rare that I finish a game and then replay it years later. I don't have many Steam games, if I did I would worry about Steam closing down but I wouldn't be paranoid: I doubt I would really replay many of them (and in such a situation I doubt I would have any qualms to resort to piracy - I paid for the game).
I wouldn't go so far to say that Digital items aren't collectible. Just look at any modern music junkie. I don't think scarcity has to be a factor in order for something to be collectible. I have a fairly extensive rom collection, for example, that I add to semi-frequently. Archived and organized in an accessible manor.
Oh I agree. In fact I think neither scarcity nor monetary value are necessary, but I am aware some people think differently.
Post Reply