Homosexuality

[harper]

There are many religions. There is one true religion. That will be offensive to anyone whom isn't an adherent. I'm sorry to offend, unintended as it is. We are aware and prepared to combat false prophets, no matter the guise.

Everyone is going to think that their religion is the "true" religion. You're just as wrong to them as they are to you.

[Johnodog]

I have never understood the disconnect between an Omniscient G-d and Homosexuality? If he created it all...gays are part of that equation.No? And why if it is a choice( its not) do we see Homosexuality in the animal Kingdom? Bonobo monkeys, for one example practice, many homosexual acts.

Quote "The issue of sin answers all of this."

No it doesn't.and besides you view of sin is irrelevant to anyone or anything but the adherents of your own religion. Otherwise we all lose the right to practice our faith since we are not in agreement with yours and visa versa. This is where you seem to have a disconnect. Your one true religion might be my cult and visa versa.


Did G-d get it wrong or has he always expected and allowed for the variations we see in nature?

Quote:"Why did you limit it to two choices? Neither is correct."
One must be correct because there are only two choices...despite a thousand differences of opinion or your own, personal interpretation of whatever holy book to which you ascribe there remains two choices either he meant it or he didn't.

[mjmjr25]

I didn't pick my faith from a hat. There are many religions. There is one true religion. That will be offensive to anyone whom isn't an adherent. I'm sorry to offend, unintended as it is. We are aware and prepared to combat false prophets, no matter the guise.

Yeah but from my point of view, you are the false prophets. Why should the Goverment listen to you and not to me? Because I can use exactly the same the same argument against you.

It's that simple.

I mostly agree with this post. You can choose to listen to my view or not, absolutely. I don't dispute Muslims or Hindus, etc, would proclaim Christianity to be a falsehood. No disagreement from me.

Dave started a thread asking 3 questions on why some people hold the views they hold, and to explain them. In the end they didn't meld with his stream of thinking and he's getting ornery about it. Don't ask for opinions/answers if you don't want opinions/answers, it sorta defeats the debate.

@harper, just saw your post. Same response as the one to General Norris.

[Ack]

Ah, I see you misunderstand what I meant. I don't mean that you feel a homosexual cannot have a relationship with God or be a member of the Christian faith. Instead, you said earlier that marriage was a covenant between man, woman, and God, thus implying to me that a same-sex marriage would not feature that same covenant with God, hence my statement. If I take that as your meaning, then for you, a same-sex marriage would not be a true marriage, regardless of it being legally recognized.

[dsheinem]

Dave started a thread asking 3 questions on why some people hold the views they hold, and to explain them. In the end they didn't meld with his stream of thinking and he's getting ornery about it. Don't ask for opinions/answers if you don't want opinions/answers, it sorta defeats the debate.

I wanted substantiated and clear answers/opinions. I assumed you provided them in that list I keep asking you about, which tries to understand them in "my stream of thinking" but you haven't confirmed whether I am right in uderstanding your reasoning or not.

Don't mistake passionate for ornery.

[MrPopo]

To you there is no proof. I have proof everyday. My goodness, I can't fathom how one can look at the heavens, the cellular structure of their body, the cause and effect of one thing on the other, the power of the human mind and the spirit of the human soul, and NOT see the proof. I mean really, it's all just particles crashing into each other and things just turned out? There is no creator? I mean, this is off-topic here, but when someone says I have no proof, the proof is in front you. It is neurons sending signals from your brain to your fingers. It is everything you do, the proof is everything you are. We are so perfectly created that the very simple becomes so complex we fight what is in front of us.

See, I have a completely different interpretation. I see that everything can be reduced down to the fundamental particles interacting through the fundamental forces and the fact that from such simplicity arises such fantastic complexity is supremely cool to me. You don't need any direction to it; the law of big numbers causes it to arise naturally. It's like how you can make Westminster Abbey out of Lego bricks or living creatures out of the four chemicals that make up DNA. The myriad of ways simple things can be arranged allows for marvelous complexity, and that is just awesome.

You want everything spelled out, black and white. That is not belief or faith. Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet still believe. It is a hard thing to do, but you want it to be easy. Not the way it works.

Correct, it is not belief or faith. The difference is that I see faith (in the sense that you use it) as a fundamentally lazy way of looking at things. The inquisitive mind should strive to find the proof of everything, the cause of everything.

[mjmjr25]

1. I think AFA, Focus on the Family, The Catholic League, etc. are representations of mainstream Christianity in the USA becasue their programming is on almost every Christian radio station, their materials are found in almost every church library, and their public events are inclusive of a wide swath of Christian denominations. A quick visit to their websites will give you all the evidence you need that they actively and aggressively promote anti-gay rights agendas (often in language echoing pro-racial segregation rhetoric).

2. I frankly don't give a shit if anything is classified as a sin by one faith or another or not. I do care that pedophilia is demonstrably harmful to the physical, emotional, and mental well being of an individual and thus is rightly classified as a crime and not condoned. The same is not true for homosexuality. At best you can argue that it is spiritually harmful based on religious views of it as a temptation, but we've already covered why legislating temptations is a fool's errand unless you want to live in a theist state.

3. Bullshit. At the end of the day the way that you exercise your "blind faith" has material black and white consequences in the real world that discriminate and harm people on the grounds of they don't believe as you do. Have faith in whatever you want, but stop imposing that faith's morals on the rest of us.

Also, still waiting on this:

I actually think I kind of understand your argument better now. Is this a fair assessment?

1. You think that you can suggest that your religious views should be the governing laws of the land because you believe they are what is best for everyone, even if some refuse to see that. - That's a simplistic view of it. We've already covered the irony of such varying laws of varying lands, all on planet Earth, you are only focused on laws in America, I presume. There is only law, imo, and that of course would be God's law. Do the majority of laws in the country I live in mesh with God's law? Yes, the majority do. I will speak witness to, particularly if asked, any laws that do not mesh with God's law, of course. As you will speak witness to any law you believe based to your personal beliefs. Not sure why this would be offensive to anyone. I'm not offended that you are a pro-ponent of homosexual marriage, yet so many are offended that most Christians are not. So hung up on "rights" - where is the concern for my "right" to have and espouse my belief? Hypocrisy anyone?

2. You think any direct/indirect "teaching" or "acknowledgement" by an institution that is not in line with Biblical principles creates a "victim" (this is closely related to #1). It certainly makes the path to Eternal Glory more difficult, yes. It is a difficult path already, paved with misinformers and swindlers. I would change, or maybe add the word "legitimizing" over "acknowledgment", but the point is largely the same.

3. You think that secular law, whenever possible, should be reflective of your view of an accounting in the afterlife. (again, pretty much #1) - Change "your view" to Christ's teaching, then "yes".

4. All "rights" are granted by God, so distinctions such as "legal," "civil," or "human" don't matter. - They matter in that they exist in the place I live this life, so I must frame my arguments in those confines.

5. You left the debate (at least for a bit) becasue you felt that your point of view was being twisted and lampooned with derisive and detracting posts.

All that pretty much accurate?

I left the debate because there is lampooning yes, but also because I don't know that everyone is attempting to truly understand the view, so much as twist it and in effect to damage to something that is the thing I care about most (my personal Covenant with God) whereas my expectation is to witness where possible, and that has largely been ineffective.

1. I'll use the Santorum argument again, but to a different angle. I support Rick Santorum. I don't support everything he has said. I support Focus on the Family. I don't support everything they say and do. Again...not sheep. Neither are you, but you keep making the sheep argument because it suits your end.

2. Don't need to be angry, maybe your not, but your verbage suggest otherwise. I'm seeing people post that they don't believe homosexuality to be sinful. Perhaps they are responding to your message and being influenced by your words. That is harmful to that person, thus, the vicim you are looking for. Again, you don't agree, but that is the reality, for me. Past cultures would tell you pedophilia is not harmful, but rather builds trust and relationships, particularly necessary for warriors going to battle. American culture today would tell you it is harmful. Not all cultures of today agree. Again, you have passion that is harmful, and I agree, but you speak as if it is a universally accepted and known thing.

3. Again, relax. Now, what law in this world isn't disagreed with by some part of any populace. You will never find an entire poopulation in agreement with any single law, even something as "black and white" as 1st degree intentional homicide.

So you suggest I don't explain my views when they are in conflict with yours - because you don't see the harm? I see the harm, i'll witness my views as I see fit. Bit of a bully mentality creeping out there, Dave.

Have faith in whatever you want, but stop imposing that faith's morals on the rest of us.

You started the thread, you asked the questions. And at the end of the day, this is the manfiestation of your argument? /Articulate

[mjmjr25]

Correct, it is not belief or faith. The difference is that I see faith (in the sense that you use it) as a fundamentally lazy way of looking at things. The inquisitive mind should strive to find the proof of everything, the cause of everything.

Don't think during my dark period I referenced earlier, that I didn't have the exact same view. I did. Religion is a tool control a populace. Religion is a crutch to help the grieving.

Once you have had the proof smashed into your being, you stop looking for those things you are looking for, Popo. Then the harder challenge, showing it others.

[mjmjr25]

Dave started a thread asking 3 questions on why some people hold the views they hold, and to explain them. In the end they didn't meld with his stream of thinking and he's getting ornery about it. Don't ask for opinions/answers if you don't want opinions/answers, it sorta defeats the debate.

I wanted substantiated and clear answers/opinions. I assumed you provided them in that list I keep asking you about, which tries to understand them in "my stream of thinking" but you haven't confirmed whether I am right in uderstanding your reasoning or not.

Don't mistake passionate for ornery.

I answered them in my post above.

You wanted yes or no answers. They weren't yes or no responses.

Sorry if I misread you. You generally do not curse, let alone multiple times in your debating, at least not in my experiences with you. I apologize.

[MrPopo]

Past cultures would tell you pedophilia is not harmful, but rather builds trust and relationships, particularly necessary for warriors going to battle. American culture today would tell you it is harmful. Not all cultures of today agree. Again, you have passion that is harmful, and I agree, but you speak as if it is a universally accepted and known thing.

Except you're ignoring the massive advances in the field of mental health that have occurred since then. Past cultures also believed that bleeding a person was an effective way of treating disease.

Additionally, I can't recall ever seeing anyone respond to Dave's second question:

How do you reconcile your disapproval of homosexuality as a "choice" with scientific evidence that supports the biological/genetic existence of homosexuality?

And that question I think is the real heart of the issue.

Don't think during my dark period I referenced earlier, that I didn't have the exact same view. I did. Religion is a tool control a populace. Religion is a crutch to help the grieving.

Once you have had the proof smashed into your being, you stop looking for those things you are looking for, Popo. Then the harder challenge, showing it others.

If the proof really is as powerful as you are claiming, shouldn't it be able to be demonstrated to everyone else? There are some fundamentally strange concepts in quantum mechanics that can be proven to occur through things such as the two slit experiment. The existence of the world is not proof because we already have excellent explanations for it that don't rely on supernatural beings. And in terms of proof of a religion, it is equally proof of every religion; your particular one is not special.

And to be fair, I don't see religion as either of those things. I see it as an attempt to gain control of their life by imposing rules that they can follow, rather than what I see as the actual state of being, which is that people make their own rules.