Homosexuality

[BurningDoom]

But Marriage is not a concept that is uniquely Christian, so we really have no right to tell anyone who can or can't get married

But just a moment ago you were saying you trust the church's teachings...yet almost every major denomination teaches that same-sex marriage should be lobbied/voted against and many spend (and/or make) quite a lot of money doing it. So when is the church right, when is the Bible right, and when does neither apply?

I believe that the Bible is right, and at the same time that many Christians and churches are overreacting to it all. The Bible may say it's a sin, but no where does it say that because it's a sin that we have the right to strike out against people or discriminate against them because of it. In fact, it teaches just the opposite, that we are to be loving and understanding to everyone as Jesus was. Since we're slinging bible quotes around, here's one of my favorite that applies perfectly to this situation:

“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

What a lot of extreme anti-gay Christians are doing goes directly against this, and it frankly, shames me to say that I'm in the same faith as such people.

[mjmjr25]

Your argument would suggest the varying bibles in wide use suggest in one version it says X is black, and in the other it says X is white. That is not the case.

Having been a professional translator in the past, I have to tell you how easy it is to skew the meaning of something through subtle word choices. Translating a book these days is no big deal but think about the King James days or Erasmus: It was a huge undertaking involving large amounts of time, money, and man power. You had to have patronage to do that kind of thing and in that instance the patron's view point is going to be the one thought of when those word choices are made.

I don't know if the bible is or isn't the word of God anymore than I know if God does or doesn't exist. But I can say with a great degree of certainty that the versions floating around currently are not the word of God verbatim.

BTW: It's worth reading the last few pages to catch up. It's been an interesting conversation.

^First I have to make amends for disclosing my wife's entry into "womanhood".

Again though Colin - as a translator, you are flawed human, as am I a flawed human, as I try to express my point.

You just assume that the authors of books of the bible and subsequent translators are flawed human, we (practicing Christians) accept and believe in the divinity of their writings - unflawed.

We are talking the divine church endorsed bibles mind you, not the Cake Bible.

[Flake]

We are talking the divine church endorsed bibles mind you, not the Cake Bible.

That term, 'divine church', is just not something I can take seriously. Modern history, ancient history, recent history - it's not like examples of the Church being a flawed organization run by flawed people of suspect motivation are hard to come by. We are now getting into the difference between faith and religion and I think we'd best avoid that avenue - it's not really relevant to the topic and it's something that can only get ugly.

[dsheinem]

@dsh,

You mentioned the seminary track you were on earlier and what everyone thought would happen. I want to ask you a serious question, do you believe you ever fully gave yourself to Christ, or maybe followed a path you were expected to follow?

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:14

I was never "on" a seminary track, but I was a very devout/fully committed/dyed in the wool Christian into early adulthood and plenty of people at church/school thought I'd be heading that way. I believed I had found a way to live in the presence of the lord (hooray for Clapton references!) and believed I "felt" much of what you described above as being "more than conscience" in my day to day life. I struggled with leaving the faith, it wasn't simply an acting out/"I want to sin for a bit" kind of thing and it took many years of going back into/out of church before I finally reached a place where I saw a big enough divide between what I knew to be good, true, and loving and what the church taught about those same things. There was a time where'd I'd have probably been right in line with your thinking on homosexuality or other religious/political issues, but I've been thoroughly convinced of the harm of that way of thinking (on myself and others) over the course of the past 10 years or so.

I'll add that losing that "God voice" in my head was also the lifting of a burden the likes of which I had never known. Owning oneself fully and completely > self-destructive meta-conscience mind games.

Under Christian doctrine I am still a Christian (I confessed my sins, accepted Christ as my savior and "fully" welcomed him into my heart, etc.) and I suppose that if it all turns out to be true, I would end up in heaven on the grounds that once someone is saved they can't lose that salvation (the "prodigal son" fiction applies here again). My mansion wouldn't be very big, but I always saw that "carrot on the stick" thing to be ridiculous/contradictory given that there would be no pride/jealousy/etc. in heaven anyway.

[Forlorn Drifter]

Follow the word, not he who claims to bring it.

I'm fine with Church, and I'm fine with pastors and such, but that is literally the last thing you need to be a good Christian. The Church has been corrupt for a long time, almost as long as it has been around. My Grandfather is the most devout Christian I know, and has never been to a Church besides weddings and funerals.

So, back on topic. Essentially, the idea is that no one is neccesarilly against homosexuals and their rights, as much as many don't like the idea of what they do. Can we work from there?

[BoringSupreez]

Well, after 10 pages I'm here for my say.

Follow the word, not he who claims to bring it.

I'm fine with Church, and I'm fine with pastors and such, but that is literally the last thing you need to be a good Christian. The Church has been corrupt for a long time, almost as long as it has been around. My Grandfather is the most devout Christian I know, and has never been to a Church besides weddings and funerals.

I remember the Bible saying that fellowship with other Christians (ie, going to church) is very important. Who you hang around affects what type of person you are, moreso than we might realize. Besides, if you are choosing on a regular basis to disregard something God commands, can you really be all that devout?

And as for the church being corrupt, well, mankind in general is corrupt. Don't let that sour you on church.


Personally, I believe homosexuality to be wrong on a moral basis. The way I read the Bible I interpret it to say, or at least imply, that it's not the way God intended us to live. It goes against my conscience as well, which Paul said in one of his letters (I forget which one) is important not to violate. Even if the Bible says something is ok, if you feel wrong for doing it you shouldn't do it. Take eating shellfish for example. The NT said that the OT dietary laws are no longer in effect, but if you feel bad about eating clams, don't eat clams. Going against your conscience is harmful for it's health and whatever earthly benefit you might gain by doing so will be outweighed by the spiritual harm. And so, that's how it is for me and homosexuality. I think the Bible says that it is wrong, but even if you can interpret it to say otherwise, I'm going with my conscience.

And for safety, I will repeat: I don't hate homosexuals. I think what they're doing is wrong, but I don't hate them.

[Flake]

The way I read the Bible I interpret it to say, or at least imply, that it's not the way God intended us to live.

That's all good and well but, (and for the sake of this argument, I am not contesting the existence God as Christians see Him) if God creates all of us perfectly in His own image, doesn't that mean that God intended for some of us to be gay?

[MrPopo]

So, back on topic. Essentially, the idea is that no one is neccesarilly against homosexuals and their rights, as much as many don't like the idea of what they do. Can we work from there?

I think it's the first half of that sentence that we don't necessarily agree on. I think homosexuals should have all the rights as heterosexuals, but at the same time I'm kinda squicked out by the thought of them engaging in carnal relations. Then again, I'm also kinda squicked out about fat people getting it on. I think the thing that bothers a lot of people like me is the deep seated belief in the sinfullness of homosexuality that comes from so many religious people. In a way I think it's worse to show people a huge amount of tolerance while at the same time believing in your heart of hearts that they're going to be punished for all eternity. I think naked hatred is much more honest.

And now into the logical fallacies section of my post. "Hate the sin, don't hate the sinner", doesn't that mean you're still hating something God created, namely sin? Also, the divine inspiration thing. You are convinced deep in your core that you understand the underlying fabric of reality vis a vis your religion. I can show you someone of a completely different faith who has the exact same feeling about their beliefs. So either at least one of you is delusional (in which case how can you be sure it's not you) or you're both connecting to facets of a deeper underlying truth (like how Newton's laws of motion are a reflection of the underlying mechanics of relativity at everyday speeds), in which case you're reaching upon the basic ideas but are probably wrong in the details.

[BoringSupreez]

The way I read the Bible I interpret it to say, or at least imply, that it's not the way God intended us to live.

That's all good and well but, (and for the sake of this argument, I am not contesting the existence God as Christians see Him) if God creates all of us perfectly in His own image, doesn't that mean that God intended for some of us to be gay?

That argument could also be used to justify nearly any other behavior humans partake in. We are created perfectly in his image, but then we choose to sin.

[Forlorn Drifter]

Well, after 10 pages I'm here for my say.

Follow the word, not he who claims to bring it.

I'm fine with Church, and I'm fine with pastors and such, but that is literally the last thing you need to be a good Christian. The Church has been corrupt for a long time, almost as long as it has been around. My Grandfather is the most devout Christian I know, and has never been to a Church besides weddings and funerals.

I remember the Bible saying that fellowship with other Christians (ie, going to church) is very important. Who you hang around affects what type of person you are, moreso than we might realize. Besides, if you are choosing on a regular basis to disregard something God commands, can you really be all that devout?

It doesn't actually say Church, and I'm always with at least one other Christian. My family is, around 85% of my friends are, and I do currently go to Church every Sunday. I'm just saying, it doesn't need to be Church.

On the bolded area, think of the people Jesus was commonly around... prostitutes, theives, gamblers, etc... and yet of these suggestions, I know many who are deeply religious. (Yes, I know prostitutes.)