Nerds and Male Privilege

[pierrot]

The problem I have with these articles is that they appear to blanket the entire community/industry while consequently throwing out or failing to acknowledge any data that might be subversive to their arguments.

I find it incredibly unfortunate that a man or woman would be patronized simply because of their appearance, but the article seems to cast aspersions on the industry as a whole, based on a fairly limited sample of experiences in a place that has a debatable affiliation with the industry or culture as a whole. I suppose I feel this is more an issue of individual behavior rather than a pervasive and insidious epidemic.

I can't say that there aren't any instances of sexism in nerd culture, or that it isn't potentially excluding of others based on characteristics that they have little control over. I just find this argument akin to asking why the mainstream isn't more accepting of gay male pornography. Much like there are many subsections of pornography that cater to people with different interests, geek culture often does the same. Geek culture has very much developed it's own subcultures, and within many of those subcultures, its own mainstream. In a Utopian society, the mainstream would be accepting of more than simply what is commonly preferred, but then perhaps it wouldn't be the mainstream, and people simply have differences in preferences that won't permit this.

Sexism, racism, ageism and other prejudices are an issue of society as a whole, and I feel that this narrowing of these social issues to a cultural subsection simply dilutes the greater issue.

Besides that there's only so much that the white-male gamer who is open to greater female, gay, latino, alien, etc voice in games can do to pave the way for them. In the end, they have to also make a space for themselves, which they are doing.

Edit: In hindsight, I suppose I don't really have a problem with what the articles represent, just the condescending tone of the first article, and the apparent lack of journalistic tenor and integrity.

[o.pwuaioc]

Fair enough, though I disagree about her looking for pity. I think she is. Beyond that though, we can agree about what her overall goal is with that article.

Sounds like a pure ad hominem attack to me. You can say that she's looking for pity, but that's just you thinking you know what she's thinking. I could just as easily say that you're sexism-denying, but of course, that doesn't make it true. With that said, yes people should always speak up for justice. However, imagine how awkward it is to be the one person making a scene at a professional meeting. Her biting her tongue does not in any way justify their judging her based solely on her gender, especially so since she's obviously credentialed, had her publications listed, and showed typical gamer signs.

The problem I have with these articles is that they appear to blanket the entire community/industry while consequently throwing out or failing to acknowledge any data that might be subversive to their arguments.

Except it's not. It's right in line with many other articles showing even more sexism. Look at the Capcom-sponsored fighting tournament. Sexism is rampant, and especially so in the gaming industry. This isn't a groundbreaking article, it's just another case study. Of course, you'd have to actually read the other cases to know that, but you'd be wrong to think that this is the only time the issue has arisen.

[Flake]

Sounds like a pure ad hominem attack to me. I could just as easily say that you're sexism-denying, but that doesn't make it true. Just because you "think" you know what's really on her mind doesn't mean jack diddly squat.

I never said that I knew what was really on her mind. I do not give a shit what is really on her mind. My opinions are about her actions and how they stand in contrast with the expressed theme of her article. So I'm kind of confused about your point.

[pierrot]

Except it's not. It's right in line with many other articles showing even more sexism. Look at the Capcom-sponsored fighting tournament. Sexism is rampant, and especially so in the gaming industry. This isn't a groundbreaking article, it's just another case study. Of course, you'd have to actually read the other cases to know that, but you'd be wrong to think that this is the only time the issue has arisen.

If you have the link for that article I might like to read it.

Anyway, my point isn't that sexism doesn't exist in the world of gaming, I just question whether these are examples of discrimination in geek circles, or examples of discrimination in society as a whole; false positives, if you will.

[o.pwuaioc]

If you have the link for that article I might like to read it.

Here's our last discussion on it:

http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopi ... 45&t=36433

Anyway, my point isn't that sexism doesn't exist in the world of gaming, I just question whether these are examples of discrimination in geek circles, or examples of discrimination in society as a whole; false positives, if you will.

Sure, it's a fair question, but as I said, the sheer number of incidences, coupled with stunts like what I linked you to above, definitely point to a larger problem within the gaming community, not merely one-offs.

[MrPopo]

Anyway, my point isn't that sexism doesn't exist in the world of gaming, I just question whether these are examples of discrimination in geek circles, or examples of discrimination in society as a whole; false positives, if you will.

Sure, it's a fair question, but as I said, the sheer number of incidences, coupled with stunts like what I linked you to above, definitely point to a larger problem within the gaming community, not merely one-offs.

I think the question he was raising is whether or not the gaming community is worse than general society. We give gaming culture a lot of scrutiny because it is a passion of ours, but are we missing the forest (society) for the trees (the gamer subgroup)?

[o.pwuaioc]

Anyway, my point isn't that sexism doesn't exist in the world of gaming, I just question whether these are examples of discrimination in geek circles, or examples of discrimination in society as a whole; false positives, if you will.

Sure, it's a fair question, but as I said, the sheer number of incidences, coupled with stunts like what I linked you to above, definitely point to a larger problem within the gaming community, not merely one-offs.

I think the question he was raising is whether or not the gaming community is worse than general society. We give gaming culture a lot of scrutiny because it is a passion of ours, but are we missing the forest (society) for the trees (the gamer subgroup)?

I'm 100% certain that what happened at the Capcom tournament would have resulted in immediate action if it had been in the workplace. To top it off, several people justified their sexism. Also, you can't really say I'm missing the forest if I do see sexism everywhere but see it especially bad here. There's another analogy you might be able to use, but that one isn't it.

[Erik_Twice]

I do not think linking E3 with Capcom's reality show is helpful, those issues cannot be covered with the same stroke and are so different in goals, shape and form that trying to mash them is only going to result in misunderstandings and blanket statements.

I simply do not think it's fair or useful to judge all gaming by Xbox live and Racketboy or wargames, roleplayers or whatever we include in the gaming sphere.

E3 strives to reach the same mainstream that produces Madonna-clones and sperm comedies. The issues raised in the article seem to me the work of executives and marketers, nothing like the close-knit community that gathered around a half-broken arcade. Handling both at the same time doesn't really make sense and results in a mess.

I'm 100% certain that what happened at the Capcom tournament would have resulted in immediate action if it had been in the workplace.

No, not at all. Specially not a Japanese company such as Capcom and specially not by workplace harassment.

[Key-Glyph]

I can't believe the guy pulled the keyboard out of her hands. I understand that salespeople are controlling of their demos (a good point made earlier in this thread), but if that were really their general concern, it doesn't stand to reason why they wouldn't restrict all journalists' play in the same way (also a point made earlier).

I'm glad she wrote the article. It gets people talking. It also brings up a conundrum that plays out fairly frequently: Women players must "prove" their worth as gamers to earn basic acceptance, but when they succeed, they're often accused of focusing on their gender plight as a shallow bid for attention. How is she supposed to earn respect in this situation? If the author can't showcase competence through gaming skill or knowledge, she's assumed to be a poseur (e.g. the representative repossessing her keyboard). If she puts extra effort into displaying the competence she possesses, she's seen as a dramatic egotist (e.g. her article being criticized as written to garner pity more than convey information). It can be difficult to break free of those two extremes and navigate a landing into the benevolent grey area of Average Joe Gamer. This is why I don't blame her for not clocking the representative. Of course it's best to stand your ground. But every so often there's an incident in which it's just too exhausting to speak up, knowing you'll only be chided to settle down for the bazillionth time -- and she does allude to her long history of these sorts of interactions.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe it's the same for grown men. If a guy isn't particularly skilled at games in general, he isn't derided as "not a real gamer" like it's a personal moral judgment -- he's just bad at games, end of story, right? Maybe he's razzed about it a bit, but he can still enjoy a basic camaraderie with the other lads in the arcade/pub, take a spin on a cab or two, and not be criticized for having only a polite interest in the hobby or for tagging along for an activity he doesn't normally pursue. Women can't casually play a few rounds or show up at an arcade without people construing it as a serious statement of character -- and that can be in either direction, positive ("WOW!! A GIRL GAMER!") or negative ("Tetris? Figures").

[Ivo]

My thoughts on the E3 article.

Like Flake I don't understand why she did not assert herself more. The only mention I saw of self-reported protests are when people asked her "but you don't really play, right?".
It gave me the feeling that she bottled it up for the article instead of complaining and telling the PR people (politely) to just let her play the damn game - which is, after all, the title of her Kotaku article.

I presume she chose to highlight the first instance because it was the most jarring with the prying of the keyboard, but I argue that it may have been a bad example. She was idling in the game when the PR rep saw her (particularly "a few minutes later"). Due to the circumstances how can we be sure that the PR rep did it because she was female - I strongly suspect a male journalist idling in an FPS and reacting exactly as she did would also have drawn attention and similar if not the same treatment from that particular PR rep.
I fell that a very simple statement "I was just appreciating the detailed graphics" and continuing to move could have sorted it out.
Instead it somehow gets to her being asked if she played shooters - at which point she (apparently panicked and) stayed silent!
As others have said, the PR reps at E3 tend to want to guide the experience as much as possible and probably also want to keep people moving so that they show the games to more people in total. I'm not excusing the PR guy actually prying the keyboard, but I think if one thinks a bit deeper about the specific circumstances for the incident it wasn't as sexist as it may appear.

There are real issues and she experienced some, I don't doubt that.
I don't think the delivery was good enough and it seems to me she should have written a better article given the type of issue it is. She mentions many things that honestly I expect are done the same way to male journalists in E3 (asking if they want a guided play through, being offered fact sheets).

What I would really like to see would be her (or another female colleague that does PC games coverage) doing a team up with a male colleague that does consoles or (even better) Facebook / iPhone games coverage. That could be very interesting. It still would not be a rigorous statistical study but would be much better at identifying the differences in treatment. With e.g. the male also idling while playing a shooter etc. Maybe next E3 someone actually does specific journalistic coverage of this type.

Ivo.