Amendment One is Passed in North Carolina

[Menegrothx]

On another note, I don't think that fighting against abortion is a hateful thing. Of course no one should be hated or bullied for circumstances beyond their control. While unborn babies don't have legal rights because they weren't born in the U.S, I don't think the founding fathers anticipated this. Since the American Constitution is based on "unalienable rights endowed by their Creator," it makes sense for new life to be protected from the moment of creation. I realize that it's tough on the women, especially if they were raped. I sympathize. But...legal murder. Of children!

Ignoring the obivous embryo!=human being-argument, I've got to say that I never got it why people who are against abortion think that it's better to live a horrible life and be raised by unloving parents/be abandoned as an unwanted child than to be aborted. Life is sacred but no one gives a damn about the actual living conditions of those children. If I had to choose between being born into some war ridden overpopulated third world shithole or being aborted as a child, I'd choose the latter. In many cases you are essentially dooming unborn human beings into a life time of misery. Things aren't so severe in the West, but there are still some pretty rough neighborhoods in the USA. I suggest you watch Menace II Society or a similiar hood movie some time.
Besides nearly unescapable economic conditions and the related consequences, it just plain sucks for a young child to feel unwanted by his/her own parents/parent, even if the said child would live in a filthy rich family.

Raped women should be forced to give birth to the children of their rapists? Really? Should they also be forced to take care of them?

[Hobie-wan]

Skipping past the other elephant in that post that has been commented on already...

I realize that violence and discrimination against gays is a major problem in many parts of the world, but in my school Christians are discriminated against more.

Dirty looks and name calling are one thing, but unless you're school is located in a time warp in the middle of the Roman empire, was anyone beaten or tortured? Persecuted? Killed for something that wasn't a choice? You can choose to believe religious teachings that are presented to you. You can have beliefs or questions that you decide a certain religion answers or otherwise gives you comfort.

People don't choose to be gay. You'd think with all the negative things that go along with being anything but heterosexual, if people had a choice there would be a lot more deciding it looks like a pretty shitty option to be the target of a lot of hate by bigots.

I imagine this is the beginning of the end for this thread. The avalanche is building momentum.

[Valkyrie-Favor]

In my, no one is being hateful towards gays, not even - gasp - Christians. No, nobody is tortured and killed in my school. I was actually attacked for my beliefs once, though. Not terribly relevant, but I have been in that situation. Anyway. What's your point?

[dsheinem]

In my, no one is being hateful towards gays, not even - gasp - Christians. No, nobody is tortured and killed in my school. I was actually attacked for my beliefs once, though. Not terribly relevant, but I have been in that situation. Anyway. What's your point?

that your school is not representative of the whole world

[Valkyrie-Favor]

I realize that violence and discrimination against gays is a major problem in many parts of the world

.
I agree completely.

I guess we should start talking about...legal stuff again?

[Hobie-wan]

Argh. Your school, not you're school. Brain fart in the middle of fevered typing. Not going to edit the post as I want the sentiment to stand without looking like I changed my mind and edited. But want to clear up that I know how to use my contractions.

[dsheinem]

contractions.

so now we're back to talking about childbirth?

[equalsign]

But??? No no no no. Just stop at sympathy. Don't pretend that you can stand behind any justifiable moral principle to tell someone that an abortion is worse than carrying the product of rape to term. Just stop.

I am pro-choice, but I think it's important to accept that there the other side has justification for thinking the way they do. They tend believe that human life is sacred and that rights are inherent from conception. Abortion then, is a very unique intersection of the rights of a woman and a child. I do not think there is any easy answer to the abortion issue. I do not believe that either side has perfectly justifiable moral principles to stand behind.

I feel that calling an unborn child "the product of rape" is a way to dehumanize and devalue them. Not everyone looks at unborn children that way and some might find that offensive. You're free to say whatever you like, but I just thought I'd say something.

I might be misreading you here, but you said that there is no "justifiable moral principle to tell someone that an abortion is is worse than carrying the product of rape to term." That could imply that you believe there is "justifiable moral principle" to tell someone that abortion is better than carrying an unborn victim of rape (aka an unborn child) to term. I recognize that the key word may have been "worse," and that what you are actually saying is that nobody is wise enough to make such a judgement. That I agree with, but only as a personal truth, not a universal one. Other people thinking differently (on either side) does not actually make them wrong, only wrong by my logic and beliefs.

I think it's easy to recognize that even under U.S. law there is a sort of contradiction in how unborn children are viewed. If my understanding of the "Unborn Victims of Violence Act" (link) is correct, then unborn children in all stages of development are legal victims under the law. However, as soon as a woman determines that she no longer wants to see the unborn child through to term all of the child's rights are forfeit. To me that's confusing.

Ultimately, I hope that people make well thought-out choices with this freedom. Either way it doesn't really affect me personally (and I'm a male), so I tend to stay away from any sort of hard position on the issue.

EDIT: Just FYI, I opened the text box when dsh's was the most recent post. Sorry if I kinda drudged up a topic we had moved past.

[dsheinem]

But??? No no no no. Just stop at sympathy. Don't pretend that you can stand behind any justifiable moral principle to tell someone that an abortion is worse than carrying the product of rape to term. Just stop.

I am pro-choice, but I think it's important to accept that there the other side has justification for thinking the way they do. They tend believe that human life is sacred and that rights are inherent from conception. Abortion then, is a very unique intersection of the rights of a woman and a child. I do not think there is any easy answer to the abortion issue. I do not believe that either side has perfectly justifiable moral principles to stand behind.

I feel that calling an unborn child "the product of rape" is a way to dehumanize and devalue them. Not everyone looks at unborn children that way and some might find that offensive. You're free to say whatever you like, but I just thought I'd say something.

I might be misreading you here, but you said that there is no "justifiable moral principle to tell someone that an abortion is is worse than carrying the product of rape to term." That could imply that you believe there is "justifiable moral principle" to tell someone that abortion is better than carrying an unborn victim of rape (aka an unborn child) to term. I recognize that the key word may have been "worse," and that what you are actually saying is that nobody is wise enough to make such a judgement. That I agree with, but only as a personal truth, not a universal one. Other people thinking differently (on either side) does not actually make them wrong, only wrong by my logic and beliefs.

I think it's easy to recognize that even under U.S. law there is a sort of contradiction in how unborn children are viewed. If my understanding of the "Unborn Victims of Violence Act" (link) is correct, then unborn children in all stages of development are legal victims under the law. However, as soon as a woman determines that she no longer wants to see the unborn child through to term all of the child's rights are forfeit. To me that's confusing.

Ultimately, I hope that people make well thought-out choices with this freedom. Either way it doesn't really affect me personally (and I'm a male), so I tend to stay away from any sort of hard position on the issue.

EDIT: Just FYI, I opened the text box when dsh's was the most recent post. Sorry if I kinda drudged up a topic we had moved past.

-he was referring specifically to rape cases, thus my comment.

-my mentioning the lack of moral certainty on the issue was meant to serve as evidence that it should remain a choice, not a law. you gave further evidence of this by citing how ridiculous these laws are.

[Jrecee]

If there's going to be talk of abortion I think it should be taken to a new topic. There's no reason to take the chance of this thread being locked because of where an off-topic discussion may go.