Joss Whedon Does Star Wars: Good Idea?

[BurningDoom]

I Love Lucy...was simply an entertaining show that made people laugh.

Ah, so comedy has no ideological entailments? I Love Lucy was created in a vacuum free of cultural belief, put out into a world where it can't have any effect on what people think is normal, acceptable, right, wrong, etc.? You really don't think the show in any way shaped how people who watched it thought about gender roles, romantic relationships, immigration, marriage, and/or child rearing? If you really don't think any of those things are part of politics, relationships, etc. - well then I don't think we can really continue this conversation.

Now you're just trying to change the subject. We were talking about Buffy and whether it had an impact on culture or not.

[sabrage]

Speaking of which, I'd argue that Beevis and Butthead had far more cultural significance than Buffy as well.

[Luke]

I feel the need to chime in.

I have a friend who worked/works with Whedon. I think they would both say "Buffy could have had the cultural impact of Lucy if people actually watched the fucking show or bought our fucking comics".

But here's the thing...I'm one of the guys who doesn't watch Buffy. I rarely even buy my friend's comics, so what do I know?

I know this: All In The Family broke new fucking ground that Lucy wouldn't touch...not for shock value, but dear God that show captured so much in so little time that I have to bring it up. Some shows make a cultural impact, some shove them in your face whether you like it or not and make you deal with it.

To me All In The Family was the biggest "fuck you, deal with it" show without having to dumb it down to a second grade level (South Park also hits home a lot, but can be very hit and miss). From Archie calling people anywhere from niggers to faggots, his words stuck with you (they still do for me).

Any show can make you feel an emotion. It's the shows that make you cling to that emotion that you can never shake off, that define a show for what it is.

Just thinking of how I or my wife will feel when coming home to an empty bed terrifies me, and that feeling, that emptiness is expressed so eloquently by the same man I despised only a few episodes ago.

[Gamerforlife]

And you're in complete denial about Buffy's impact on culture if you think it had none.

When did I ever say it had none?

This is what irritates me about Whedon fellationados: they think his work is extremely brilliant and the pinnacle of Western creative thought and that anyone who doesn't see that is naive for completely discounting him.

I like Whedon's stuff. It is marginally interesting from a scholarly perspective. He is not Alfred Hitchcock or Stanley Kubrick and Buffy is not I Love fucking Lucy.

You sure do make a lot of generalizations about Whedon fans. I don't think anything in BurningDoom's post said that Whedon's work is, "the pinnacle of Western creative thought and that anyone who doesn't see that is naive for completely discounting him." Or that he is a Whedon "fellationado." You just sound like someone who has a personal grudge against people who like Whedon's work with generalizations like that.

However, your posts HAVE implied that Buffy has little to no cultural impact, which I've already proven wrong.

That's a list of mentions the show has had in other pop culture. You are right, I don't consider that to be very important. Name dropping and making allusions to characters or plot lines for a gag doesn't say much about the show other than that it lends itself well to name dropping/parody/etc. It says little to nothing about the significance of the show's story, characters, or writing on how people think about the world or their place in it (or political issues, their personal relationships and those of others, their understanding of history and its relevance, etc.).

Right, and the fact that Buffy has been parodied and mentioned in so many shows on that Wikipedia page, including high rated, culturally significant shows like Friends, Saturday Night Live, and the aforementioned Will and Grace clearly shows that Buffy was obviously not a show that was in the minds of many people or had any significance on the thinking of the people who made those shows or the people who watched them.

Obviously, a show that has been referenced and parodied in so many TV shows could not have had any effect on how people think about the world or their place in it (or political issues, their personal relationships and those of others, their understanding of history and its relevance, etc.). Obviously, Buffy has never had any influence on anyone. Obviously, it was a show that no one ever thought about in any way, shape, or form. Because well known, popular shows just name drop shows that have no significant cultural impact all the time. Obviously, a show that gets referenced on The Simpsons, Saturday Night Live, Madtv, Friends, Will and Grace, Disney's House of Mouse, Smallville, Gilmore Girls, True Blood, Xena, Heroes and Family Guy has very little to no cultural impact. I'm sure a show getting mentions on highly rated shows like that has never affected how people see or think about the world in any way, shape, or form at all

Let me not even mentioned the tons of popular online blogs, websites, and even magazines that have constantly mentioned Buffy over the years.

Obviously, a show that has no impact on how people think about the world would also never inspire other shows right? So the fact that Russel T Davies, former show runner of one of the biggest, culturally ingrained shows in the UK (Doctor Who) mentions Buffy as an influence in his writing means nothing. Or the fact that Bruce Timm, involved in practically every important piece of DC animation in the past decade or more going all the way back to trend setting Batman the Animated Series, talks about Buffy's influence on him and a certain Justice League Unlimited episode in particular that he worked on means nothing. Or Eric Kripke mentioning Buffy when talking about his, very Buffy-like show Supernatural, which has been popular enough to be renewed for seven seasons now. Should I even mention Buffy or Angel rip offs like Moonlight?

Do I have to also bring up how much Buffy and Angel changed how vampires are viewed in pop culture. Just look at any of the mega popular vamp movies or shows in the past few years like The Vampire Diaries, Twilight, and True Blood and you can see the Buffy and Angel influences all over them.

Or let's talk about how the episode Once More with Feeling influenced so many other shows to try musical episodes, even before Glee become popular. Shows like Grey's Anatomy with their Song Beneath the Song episode, or Scrubs with My Musical.

Not to mentions performances of the show in actual theaters or youtube videos you can find of students and kids doing their own stage versions at schools

And we're just talking Buffy/Angel here, if we bring Firefly and it's cultural impact and impact on the world back into this

http://www.geeksofdoom.com/2010/02/13/g ... heme-song/

http://blog.oregonlive.com/peteramescar ... ve_at.html

http://themovieblog.com/2009/colbert-tr ... a-contest/

I like Whedon's stuff. It is marginally interesting from a scholarly perspective. He is not Alfred Hitchcock or Stanley Kubrick and Buffy is not I Love fucking Lucy.

Wow, that doesn't sound elitist. Let's test this "marginally" theory.

http://slayageonline.com/EBS/tables_of_ ... ritics.htm
http://www.alysa316.com/Whedonology/

The metaphors alone can inspire plenty of scholarly discussions, and specific Buffy episodes like "The Body" and its exploration of real life death and its real effect on people certainly leave more of an impact and food for thought for a viewer than any I Love Lucy episode. Not that I have anything against that show.

[Jmustang1968]

Yeah I dont get the Whedon adoration either. I think the only thing he has done that I like is Firefly/Serenity (Havent seen Cabin in the Woods yet). I loathe Buffy and Angel. I never understood how people liked it. To me it was always groan inducing and made me want to roll my eyes at its ridiculousness...

[sabrage]

Yeah I dont get the Whedon adoration either. I think the only thing he has done that I like is Firefly/Serenity (Havent seen Cabin in the Woods yet). I loathe Buffy and Angel. I never understood how people liked it. To me it was always groan inducing and made me want to roll my eyes at its ridiculousness...

Have you seen Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog? I thought it was hilarious and I hate musicals.

[MrPopo]

Guys guys. I think we can all agree that Dsh made a mistake by becoming a professor of a soft subject instead of something real like physics.

[dsheinem]

However, your posts HAVE implied that Buffy has little to no cultural impact, which I've already proven wrong... Obviously, Buffy has never had any influence on anyone. Obviously, it was a show that no one ever thought about in any way, shape, or form.

I did not mean to imply that the show had little to no cultural impact or influence at all, and I don't think I ever have. I argued that from a scholarly perspective, as something to teach about and research/write about, it was less culturally significant than most or all of the other examples I gave. In the quote you selected to respond to, I also argued that the name dropping/citing across those examples found in the Wikipedia list (or added by you later, for that matter) isn't a very good definition of cultural relevance. Don't conflate these different arguments.

Let's test this "marginally" theory.

http://slayageonline.com/EBS/tables_of_ ... ritics.htm
http://www.alysa316.com/Whedonology/

The metaphors alone can inspire plenty of scholarly discussions

The argument I was responding to earlier was about Whedon's continued relevance to what Pop Matters called "television critics and scholars in the history of television". I am qualified to respond to that, though I am not going to pretend to be an expert on each and every field that might be interested in Buffy. That said, I am just familiar enough with many of them to know that these lists confirm two points I made earlier: 1) that Whedon's significance to academia is dwindling (most of the stuff at these links was written/presented between 2000-2003 or so, much of it by graduate students) and 2) a very small fraction of scholarship about Buffy is actually important scholarship that is published in well-regarded academic journals or through esteemed academic presses.

I don't think anything in BurningDoom's post said that Whedon's work is, "the pinnacle of Western creative thought and that anyone who doesn't see that is naive for completely discounting him." Or that he is a Whedon "fellationado."

It's called "hyperbole." And "humor."

Guys guys. I think we can all agree that Dsh made a mistake by becoming a professor of a soft subject instead of something real like physics.

But Whedon is extremely important to science! Look, here are some articles!

Connor, Ed. "Psychology Bad: Why Neuroscience is the Darkest Art in the Latest Whedonverse." The Psychology of Joss Whedon: An Unauthorized Exploration of Buffy, Angel, and Firefly. Ed. Joy Davidson. Dallas: BenBella, 2007. 185-195.

___. "Myth, Metaphor, Morality and Monsters: The Espenson Factor and Cognitive Science in Joss Whedon's Narrative Love Ethic." Slayage: The Online International Journal of Buffy Studies 7.4 (28), Summer 2009. Also presented in earlier form as "Cognitive Science in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel, Firefly and Serenity: the Espenson Factor" at the 2008 PCA/ACA National Conference, San Francisco, CA, 19-22 March 2008. Available Online.

Wharton, Ken. "The Alliance's War on Science." Serenity Found: More Unauthorized Essays on Joss Whedon's Firefly Universe. Ed. Jane Espenson with Leah Wilson. Dallas: BenBella, 2007. 141-150.

And, my god, even physicists aren't safe from the powerful influence of the Joss Boss!

Ouellette, Jennifer. The Physics of the Buffyverse. New York: Penguin, 2006.

Speakman, Scott. "Magic, Classical Physics, and the Conservation of Energy and Matter." Paper accepted (but not presented) for the Slayage Conference on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Nashville, May 2004.

___. "Playing Buffy: Remediation, Occulted Meta-game-Physics and the Dynamics of Agency in the Videogame Version of Buffy the Vampire Slayer." Slayage: The Online International Journal of Buffy Studies 2.4 (8), March 2003. Also presented at Blood, Text and Fears, University of East Anglia, 19-20 October 2002. Available online.

See, his majesty is an intellectual and creative genius! A renaissance man the likes of which we haven't seen since DaVinci!

(that's more hyperbole, by the way)

[Jmustang1968]

If Buffy and Angel are the pinnacle of cultural significance and television for the last 20 or 30 years, then I feel ashamed for us all lol.

[Luke]

If Buffy and Angel are the pinnacle of cultural significance and television for the last 20 or 30 years, then I feel ashamed for us all lol.

Who said that?