Thoughts on innovation during the next console generation

[dsheinem]

All of those claims or implied claims in the OP were suggested as fact, not opinion, which is what made me get pissy at the outset. There is no "implied 'I think'" in any of this, especially since "I think" and other qualifier were used in other sections of the posting.

So take him at his claims! If he says he doesn't like generation w for reasons x, y, and z, where x, y, and z are factually wrong, then he is misinformed and needs correction. But too often the phrase "that's subjective!" or "that's the nostalgia speaking!" is used to immediately shut down the opinions of those who truly don't find modern games to be that impressive...as a whole.

The problems with those claims are obvious and/or have been dealt with extensively in other threads, so I didn't (and don't) see it worth my time to dissect them. Instead, I attacked the logic/reasoning behind the claims rather than the claims themselves, which is a perfectly acceptable way to tackle a debate like this. The post indicated that the "problem" was that things in the industry were regretfully not like they were in the "golden age" of the 1990s. This sentiment, coupled with the amount of baseless claims, suggested to me that his argument was rooted in nostalgia. Hell, he suggested himself that nostalgia might be shaping his views and confirmed as much in some subsequent posts. So I attacked nostalgia as a problematic way to compare games across generations. I don't see what the big deal is.

[o.pwuaioc]

The problem was in the direction. You made it out to seem that whoever prefers the "golden age" is coming to that conclusion from nostalgia's sake. In fact, you yourself state as much:

None of the criticisms in this thread or countless others we've had on the forum about the "sorry state" of modern gaming makes ANY FUCKING SENSE. All I can do is chock it up to nostalgia or some kind of defense of personal identity as tied to a particular era/console/etc.

Right, so not liking motion controls or linear first-person shooters means they're just living in the past.

[dsheinem]

The problem was in the direction. You made it out to seem that whoever prefers the "golden age" is coming to that conclusion from nostalgia's sake. In fact, you yourself state as much:

None of the criticisms in this thread or countless others we've had on the forum about the "sorry state" of modern gaming makes ANY FUCKING SENSE. All I can do is chock it up to nostalgia or some kind of defense of personal identity as tied to a particular era/console/etc.

Right, so not liking motion controls or linear first-person shooters means they're just living in the past.

But that's not all there is to modern gaming, that's just two things among many that are popular. So people don't like that there are more kinds of games to choose from? I don't get it.

[o.pwuaioc]

The problem was in the direction. You made it out to seem that whoever prefers the "golden age" is coming to that conclusion from nostalgia's sake. In fact, you yourself state as much:

None of the criticisms in this thread or countless others we've had on the forum about the "sorry state" of modern gaming makes ANY FUCKING SENSE. All I can do is chock it up to nostalgia or some kind of defense of personal identity as tied to a particular era/console/etc.

Right, so not liking motion controls or linear first-person shooters means they're just living in the past.

But that's not all there is to modern gaming, that's just two things among many that are popular. So people don't like that there are more kinds of games to choose from? I don't get it.

But where do people say that there's nothing? The word industry was in the very title itself! Moreover, you're blatantly ignoring what's I've been emphasizing throughout. I'll make it capitalized and bold since italics don't seem to work:

ON THE WHOLE

[dsheinem]

But where do people say that there's nothing? The word industry was in the very title itself! Moreover, you're blatantly ignoring what's I've been emphasizing throughout. I'll make it capitalized and bold since italics don't seem to work:

ON THE WHOLE

Yeah, you are losing me. I don't see any sense to any of the arguments made that ON THE WHOLE the industry is somehow lacking in innovation compared to previous eras. I thought I've made that clear. The OP provided no good arguments about the lack of innovation in the industry ON THE WHOLE, just nostalgia for some preferred era. Others have done the same many times.

[o.pwuaioc]

I think you're confusing your personal thoughts and feelings about modern gaming with everyone else's.

[dsheinem]

I think you're confusing your personal thoughts and feelings about modern gaming with everyone else's.

no, I'm saying that if you want to claim there's no/less innovation in modern gaming than you need to be able to back it up with something other than "because it isn't like the 'golden age'".

[Menegrothx]

Loads of quotes

First of all I will just say that you cant really prove a statement like “a lot of gamers really despise the Modern Warfare-franchise“ or that “a lot of teenagers hate Justin Bieber“ or “Night trap has that distinctive 90s FMV game feel to it“. Its just something that you know if you read a lot about the subject and talk with like-minded people. There is no need to do an official poll or scientific research on the subject, the community just has a some sort of consensus or a vague collective opinion in certain things.

And like you said it yourself, the game industry has changed. The audience is more diverse, there is more money involved in the business and game developers are catering more towards casuals and at times clinically retarded people.


1.a Ok, it is hard to define what is innovative and what is not. I guess the point is that almost everything has been invented or tried out already. Same thing happens in other media too, movies, TV shows etc. Its natural, the older the industry is, the harder it is to come up with an original idea of your own.
1.b More consoles, stuff like 32X, Virtual boy etc that failed, more in your face ad campaigns etc... I think its pretty safe to say that these days atleast hardware manufacturers that arent Nintendo are playing it more safe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSD_%28video_game%29 if this is not risk taking, then what is?
1.c I provdided you some examples. You are the one who couldnt name any examples when I asked you to.

2. Are you a hardcore PC gamer? Im not, but I know some people who are. The kind that started with Commodore 64 that have never touched any consoles. They seem to think that way. Are you implying that there are more exclusive big budget games on the PC nowadays than there were back before the era of 100 mbps connection online piracy? Games like Monkey Island, 7th Guest, Myst, Doom etc. Console games that get a half-assed PC port are not PC exclusives mind you. Why would genres like FPS games, and game developers in general, be shifting towards consoles these days, if there was nothing wrong with the state of PC gaming? More money in the console business and a lot less piracy.

3.What is your point? That Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony havent ruled the console market for 2 consecutive generations in a row? It was a question aimed at people reading the thread.

4. First you accuse me of having nostalgia goggles on, but then when I say that the sort of utterly shit games that could get an official release on NES etc earlier consoles couldnt get released today, Im still being biased? I was complementing current gen consoles by that comment, not criticizing it.

5. The first Portal was a pack in game, not an individual release. Thats why it surprised every one, people bought Orange Box to play the next episode of Half Life 2 and maybe some Team Fortress, not to play some silly little physics game that turned out to be brilliant.

6. Are you also implying that there wasnt a flood of generic FMV games on early CD based consoles and that there wasnt a flood of 2D platformers on 8 and 16 bit systems? Or is it only the current generation of gaming that needs to be protected from bad stereotypes?

[RyaNtheSlayA]

2. Are you a hardcore PC gamer? Im not, but I know some people who are. The kind that started with Commodore 64 that have never touched any consoles. They seem to think that way. Are you implying that there are more exclusive big budget games on the PC nowadays than there were back before the era of 100 mbps connection online piracy? Games like Monkey Island, 7th Guest, Myst, Doom etc. Console games that get a half-assed PC port are not PC exclusives mind you. Why would genres like FPS games, and game developers in general, be shifting towards consoles these days, if there was nothing wrong with the state of PC gaming? More money in the console business and a lot less piracy

PC gaming. Happily dying since 1995.

Seriously, consoles have tons of piracy as well. It's extremely easy to pirate 360 and Wii games. PC games are selling more than ever at this point in time, and there are tons of PC exclusives coming out as well. At this very moment, there are nearly 5 million Steam users online. I am a hardcore PC gamer, almost all the games I play are on PC, and it's certainly not dying.

The reason there are more console exclusives (keep in mind, they're not "moving" to consoles, they've always been on consoles) is because there's a far larger install base of consoles than there are people with gaming capable computers.

[dsheinem]

Loads of quotes

I was quoting things you said which were patently untrue and/or unsubstantiated. You've done very little if anything to support them in the rest of these comments. Nonetheless, and against my better judgement, I'll tackle them since my son has kicked me off the TV to watch Curious George.

First of all I will just say that you cant really prove a statement like “a lot of gamers really despise the Modern Warfare-franchise“ or that “a lot of teenagers hate Justin Bieber“ or “Night trap has that distinctive 90s FMV game feel to it“. Its just something that you know if you read a lot about the subject and talk with like-minded people. There is no need to do an official poll or scientific research on the subject, the community just has a some sort of consensus or a vague collective opinion in certain things.

No shit. I never suggested otherwise.

game developers are catering more towards casuals and at times clinically retarded people.

Why the fuck am I wasting my time on you anyway? Who are these "clinically retarded people" that you hate so much? What a bigoted prick you must be IRL.

1.a Ok, it is hard to define what is innovative and what is not.

no, it isn't, and this was never a contention by anyone.

I think its pretty safe to say that these days atleast hardware manufacturers that arent Nintendo are playing it more safe...

I never argued otherwise, though certainly people have talked about the Vita being a pretty serious risk given the market...

1.c I provdided you some examples. You are the one who couldnt name any examples when I asked you to.

examples of what?

2. Are you a hardcore PC gamer?

By your definition, no. But Ryan answered this well.

3.What is your point? That Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony havent ruled the console market for 2 consecutive generations in a row? It was a question aimed at people reading the thread.

No, my point is/was:

I'm saying that if you want to claim there's no/less innovation in modern gaming than you need to be able to back it up with something other than "because it isn't like the 'golden age'".

I'm not going to deal with 4,5 or 6 because they aren't points I made or because they are tangential to the main point.