Developer calling Used game sales #1 issue in the industry..

[isiolia]

What would a developer know about the impact of used sales? I think I would rather talk to someone in economics. Would a economics professor know how to develop a game? No. So why would the reverse be true.

Well, they know they have a studio to run, and that takes money.

They know from trophy data/etc that (offhand) three million people played their game versus the two million copies they received money for.

It doesn't take an economics degree to wish you got a 50% raise. Particularly when it'd be justified by work you already do.

My point being how does that equate to loss of sales? How can he prove that all those people would have bought the game new if no used to buy and how does he prove that all the people that did buy his game new would have still bought it new if the knew they couldn't sell it back or trade games in to purchase it.

I think the gap is large enough that it's fair to say that they would have had more sales without, say, Gamestop aggressively pursuing trade-ins and pushing the used copies over new. This isn't one out of ten people, it's one out of three. Obviously they had quite a few more people interested enough in the game to try it than bought it new.

It doesn't have to be absolutely true in all cases to be a valid point. If they had a total of 2.5 million players, but got the money from all of them, then they're still ahead.

That said, the game itself is probably more susceptible to loaning or trading in due to length.

[RyaNtheSlayA]

/snip

Except you're not getting a beta game. You're getting the entire single player experience. The codes (at least so far) are multiplayer only, which would be useless in 5 years anyway. So far the only "rental" services are things like Steam and PSN. Many studios do have play testers, but games have gotten much harder to play test in recent years due to size and complexity. Yes they should try to spend more time play testing and fixing bugs, but you have to understand. Most developers have strict release windows given to them by the publishers. Would you rather the game never got a bug fix?

Used game sales do hurt the industry. You say that there wouldn't be an industry without them, but how does that make sense? If everybody just bought used games there would be no money to be made by publishers and they'd stop paying developers who are the ones making games. The used game sales do hurt the industry as a whole, but it's not entirely Gamestop's fault. Even though they push used games in your face around every corner, games are honestly priced way too high. I can't really blame people for wanting to save $5 here and there by buying used, $60 is a lot of cash to drop on something with a 3 hour campaign and limited lasting appeal. Especially in this economic state.

I buy tons of used games, but all of them for now retro consoles. I know a lot of people that buy new games used not out of desire too, but because they just don't have the money too buy it brand new. I can respect that, going through several economic troubles of my own. However I encourage them to look in their local ads for some deals. I know K-Mart and Target regularly have sales on brand new games that slash a good $10 off a week or two after a game is released, and will sometimes knock up to $20 off an older new title to clean them out of stock.

[o.pwuaioc]

If everybody just bought used games

This is impossible.

[MrPopo]

As someone mentioned earlier, it's not the existance of a used games market that is damaging. It's the RAMPANT culture of used games that has been championed by Gamestop. When I was growing up we had FuncoLand. It was a great place; I could pick up a copy of a game that wasn't on the shelves of Toys R Us and I could sell some of my old games that I didn't play anymore. These were games I'd owned for a year or two. That is not how the Gamestop model works. The Gamestop model is that you buy the game for $60, play for a week or two, then sell it back for $30. That is a ridiculously fast turn around. That's basically renting the game, as mentioned earlier. And when games are being sold back to Gamestop in such a short time frame that means you now have a large group of people who wait a month and then buy it used from Gamestop. That severely cuts in to initial sales for a game. In the old days if you couldn't afford a game you would wait 6+ months for it to go on sale as the store tries to move the inventory. Now you wait a month or less. Other media industries don't have this massive turn around. Do you read a book once and sell it to a used book store? How about your DVD of The Lion King? Do you only watch that once before selling it to a store? The turn around time on games is way too fast, and that is what is the real concern.

[o.pwuaioc]

That's basically renting the game, as mentioned earlier.

I wonder how people get duped into this model? It's actually not beneficial to the person buying the game, as they could just rent them, or sign up to that Netflix-like service whose name escapes me. Why would anyone pay $30 (assuming they get $30 for the trade-in) on a game to only return it after beating it? Isn't that the point of rentals?

[isiolia]

That's basically renting the game, as mentioned earlier.

I wonder how people get duped into this model? It's actually not beneficial to the person buying the game, as they could just rent them, or sign up to that Netflix-like service whose name escapes me. Why would anyone pay $30 (assuming they get $30 for the trade-in) on a game to only return it after beating it? Isn't that the point of rentals?

Gamefly, or actually Blockbuster has a service like that now too I think.


...and you'd be surprised how many people don't do the math and just bring in stacks of games. 'course, you also used to have tons of people abusing return policies and paying effectively nothing to "rent" games.

[pepharytheworm]

As someone mentioned earlier, it's not the existance of a used games market that is damaging. It's the RAMPANT culture of used games that has been championed by Gamestop. When I was growing up we had FuncoLand. It was a great place; I could pick up a copy of a game that wasn't on the shelves of Toys R Us and I could sell some of my old games that I didn't play anymore. These were games I'd owned for a year or two. That is not how the Gamestop model works. The Gamestop model is that you buy the game for $60, play for a week or two, then sell it back for $30. That is a ridiculously fast turn around. That's basically renting the game, as mentioned earlier. And when games are being sold back to Gamestop in such a short time frame that means you now have a large group of people who wait a month and then buy it used from Gamestop. That severely cuts in to initial sales for a game. In the old days if you couldn't afford a game you would wait 6+ months for it to go on sale as the store tries to move the inventory. Now you wait a month or less. Other media industries don't have this massive turn around. Do you read a book once and sell it to a used book store? How about your DVD of The Lion King? Do you only watch that once before selling it to a store? The turn around time on games is way too fast, and that is what is the real concern.

The turn around on Movies is pretty high, working at fye I see a fast turn around on almost any new release. One of the reasons is it only takes one viewing to realize you don't like a movie. Now music not as much, at least a week after its released before I usually see cds sold back.

[Erik_Twice]

This is simple.

I have the right to sell my property.

If I buy a game, it's mine, it's my property.

This is the most basic right of our economical system. It's axiomatic, if I buy, it's mine, that's the definition. I don't like people who rally against my basic economic rights so they earn more money.

We could also get more sales for the industry if we forced people to buy games. Which reminds me of that distopian book where they do that. A Happy World? Something like that.

[TornadoCreator]

Used game sales do hurt the industry.

Do you have proof of this?

Used games means more people get to play the game. These people may become fans and may then buy your next game new or recommend the game to a friend who might buy it new... but that's not all...
Used games are games that someone has traded in, probably so they can afford their next game. Remove trade in market and even the people who buy new don't buy your game because they now can't afford it.

Here's an example.

You have stats that show 3 million people played your game, but you only make 2 million sales... first of all, this tells you your game was poor enough that 1 million people decided it wasn't worth keeping, which let's you know something of importance at least.

Now the claim is that without used sales, they may have sold 2.5 million but maybe they wouldn't... here's how.
Perhaps the following would happen... out of the 1 million that would have bought used half of them begrudgingly buy it new, but out of the 2 million who would have bought new, 0.4 million can't afford it because they can't trade in their old games for store credit, a further 0.4 million decide not to bother because there's another game they'd prefer that came out last week, they would have bought both but they can't afford $120 in a single week for games and they can't get that other game second-hand anymore, lastly there's 0.2 million people who just decide "sod it" and pirate the game because they're not prepared to pay $60 for a game even if they can afford it, if pre-owed was avaliable, they would have traded in some old games and got it new on store credit instead...

Now you game has 1.5 million sales, and 1.5 million people have played it, instead of 2 million sales, and 3 million players.... when your sequel comes out, you have half as many players to market it too, and the first time buyers can't buy the first one pre-owned so that they have the whole set or to "see if they'll like the new one", so you're discouraging new buyers.

Let me put it this way, I intend to get a PS3 at the end of this year. I will get the Uncharted games. If I couldn't get Uncharted 1 & 2 pre-owned, I'd probably not bother with Uncharted 3.... so they loose a sale.

Pre-owned is not the enemy, it's a part of a symbiotic commercial relationship. Gamestop may be pushing it too much, but that's an American company, we don't have it here so I personally don't care... I don't want my games changed to combat "pre-owners" just because Gamestop is over-selling pre-owned games.

[MrPopo]

<snip>

Pulling numbers out of your ass to combat numbers pulled out of the ass is not an effective debate technique. I firmly believe that it is not the existance of used game sales, but rather the massive institutionalization of them by Gamestop and the subsequent culture of never replaying a game that is harming things.