Moral Decay midseason spinoff thread

[DinnerX]

Well, this thread is basically a continuation of the morals discussion from the games rated incorrectly thread.

I always like debating. So long as it doesn't deteriorate into personal insults and swearing I think a debate is good. It makes everyone think about their positions, even if no one changes their mind. The only bad debate is one badly done, you might say.

What I mean here is that it is not significant for the historical record. We care about when people were born. Not about all the details of what their parents did one night.

But almost all of the most important works of art man has made are greatly influenced by sex.

Point taken. Although, I’d venture to say world history is more essential that art history. That’s debatable I know.

I don't think you could say it doesn't hurt anyone. I've seen people's lives, reputations, and families get totally destroyed over doing something "natural."

I still don't see why someone can't enjoy his body with whoever he likes while he's single

It still can have consequences. Nothing much will absolutely guarantee to protect you 100% from getting or giving a disease. There can be emotional consequences as well.

Having intercourse left and right seems pretty animal like to me. Although even some animals mate for life.

You perhaps have never experienced the beauty of flirting and chasing the girl of your dreams.

Are you saying if it feels good than it is good? A lot of people do wrong things and feel good about it while they do it. And, if a guy has found his dream girl, why not marry her?

Also, something being natural doesn't necessarily make it right or acceptable to discuss.

Yes, YES it does. Otherwise you get moron teenagers who think that people tell them to use condoms so they don't enjoy sex as much.

I didn’t say I was against all discussion of the subject. I was simply saying that natural does not necessarily equal acceptable. Factual discussions would be fine. Someone has to tell kids where babies come from and so on.

I don’t think that’s the same as art with purely erotic intents.

EDIT

Ok I missed this when I first read this and replied to this, but are you freaking implying that sex isn't.......right?

I wasn’t trying to imply that either. As a side note, I never quite understood that perspective. I mean, it’d basically let humanity die off in a generation.

My main point is they are two very different things, and society has very different standards as to how much of either can be displayed. Very different standards for very different subjects. What is the issue with that?

Because it doesn't make sense for something which EVERYONE goes through (and if you don't, goooooood I feel sorry for you), to be considered more taboo than, ooooh.... I don't know, stealing a car and running people over, beheading people, killing them with a chainsaw, using fucking nukes as toys that go boom, or a lot of other gruesome stuff we see.

Sex is a very private thing when it happens so we don't discuss it in public in America. Kind of like urinating only much, much, much, much, more so. Violence is usually pretty public in nature so it is discussed.

Let me put it this way. Would you rather catch your daughter at home fucking with some dude, or catch her beheading the neighbors? I'll take the first option any day, thank you very much.

Naaaah kill the neighbors. Just kidding. Obviously I think both things are bad though. You've loaded the choices here. A brutal murder is near the epitome of violence. I could load things the other way too. Would you rather find your son with a girl or find out he pinched the neighbor kid?

BTW I'm not against the portrayal of violence. I believe that freedom of speech means, I can portray ANYTHING I want, and if you don't like it look the other way. But distribution channels restricting the available content is pure censorship in my opinion, and should be illegal.

I agree! I'm not for legal censorship either. Just personal censorship. I think any government censorship, no matter how well intentioned, will just wind up hurting free speech.

I don't think you could say it doesn't hurt anyone. I've seen people's lives, reputations, and families get totally destroyed over doing something "natural."

I bet you are not talking about sex, but about people being jerks because someone had sex. Different matters.

After all, I could argue that lives, reputations and families get totally destroyed because I decided to have a black friend.

People don’t have to be “jerks” for their to be consequences as I say earlier in this post.

Although for some of the particular consequences I was thinking of you are right. They rely on other peoples reactions. Really though, is it jerky or unreasonable for a wife to take her husbands affair as a huge slap in the face? An affair just screams to her “You weren’t good enough.” Or what about a father upset his daughter is pregnant?

Having intercourse left and right seems pretty animal like to me. Although even some animals mate for life.

If I want to have sex left and right, that's my choice. My body, my choice. I do not understand what's wrong with that idea.

Are you saying if you do it with your own body it’s OK then? We do everything with our own bodies. Or if your saying it can’t effect others, I addressed that earlier in my post.

Well, this turned out to be a big post.
I do hope I'm not offending anyone really bad here. I'm not trying to make people mad, just discuss something.

[ZeroAX]

Naaaah kill the neighbors. Just kidding. Obviously I think both things are bad though. You've loaded the choices here. A brutal murder is near the epitome of violence. I could load things the other way too. Would you rather find your son with a girl or find out he pinched the neighbor kid?

My son with a girl of course. Go son!!!

I don't have kids yet, but I think after they turn 16 it's natural to have sex. As long as he/she use a condom, is not dating someone who is way older/younger than him/her, and he/she doesn't do anything over the internet (god the amount of cyber sex videos of stupid teens I find on porn sites), I'll be happy my kids have a healthy sex life.

[Erik_Twice]

It still can have consequences. Nothing much will absolutely guarantee to protect you 100% from getting or giving a disease.

Life isn't safe. Having sex with a condom is a much safer than many other common activities like driving the killing machines known as cars. We also allow bungie jumping and parachuting even tough it's far more dangerous.

There can be emotional consequences as well.

Worse emotional consequences than not fulfilling your basic human needs?

Would you rather find your son with a girl or find out he pinched the neighbor kid?

I would rather find him with a girl, assuming consent on both parts, than finding him annoying the neighbour kid.

Although for some of the particular consequences I was thinking of you are right. They rely on other peoples reactions. Really though, is it jerky or unreasonable for a wife to take her husbands affair as a huge slap in the face?

No, but it's jerky to lie to your wife, telling her you are going to be monogamous when you are not going to be.

Nothing related to sex, if your wife allows you to, nothing wrong with it. The problem is that you lied, not that you had sex. if she allows it, there's no problem.

Or what about a father upset his daughter is pregnant?

That's not a problem with having sex, it's a problem with being irresponsible and not taking the neccesary safety measures. If she got pregnant it's because she was dumb enough so as to not use a condom or, even worse, she used one and when it broke she was dumb enough so as to not go to a Pharmacy and ask for a pill.

It's like driving against a wall. The problem is not driving but doing it wrong

[DinnerX]

I don't have kids yet, but I think after they turn 16 it's natural to have sex.

You're not really forced into it or anything. It might be natural to want to. Maybe that's what you meant.

It still can have consequences. Nothing much will absolutely guarantee to protect you 100% from getting or giving a disease.

Life isn't safe. Having sex with a condom is a much safer than many other common activities like driving the killing machines known as cars. We also allow bungie jumping and parachuting even tough it's far more dangerous.

No life isn't safe, but why take unnecissary risk, when you can satisfy your desires much less risky ways? Also, the point was to say there were risks, not that it was more risky than other things.

There can be emotional consequences as well.

Worse emotional consequences than not fulfilling your basic human needs?

Since you can go your whole life without it I don't think it could be a basic need.

It's like driving against a wall. The problem is not driving but doing it wrong

Why drive against the wall at all?

Suppose you only ever drink root beer with your grandfather. This makes you associate root beer with the friendship you have with your grandfather. When you think of your grandfather, you often think of root beer, and when you think of root beer you think of your grandfather. If you drink root beer with anyone, it still tastes good, but it can't have quite the same meaning.

If sex is treated as something special for married people, it helps couples think of marriage as something important and helps bring them together even more. From what I've seen, there are a ton of factors for a happy marriage, so let me make it clear I am not claiming this is a cure all that guarantees success, or you have no chance of a happy marriage if you don't do this. I am claiming it would be a help in keeping people together. Why squander it?

[Erik_Twice]

No life isn't safe, but why take unnecissary risk, when you can satisfy your desires much less risky ways?

Because I think the benefit is worth it. I decide because it's my body and my sexuality, no more, no less.

Also, the point was to say there were risks, not that it was more risky than other things.

The point is that it's irrelevant because the risk is negligible.

Since you can go your whole life without it I don't think it could be a basic need.

You can also go your whole life without talking with anyone or doing anything remotedly fun. That doesn't make socialization any less of a basic need.

Of course wether it's a basic need or not is irrelevant. Playing lots of videogames are not a basic need and you don't oppose it.

Why drive against the wall at all?

Why have sex without a condom? Same point.

Suppose you only ever drink root beer with your grandfather. This makes you associate root beer with the friendship you have with your grandfather. When you think of your grandfather, you often think of root beer, and when you think of root beer you think of your grandfather. If you drink root beer with anyone, it still tastes good, but it can't have quite the same meaning.

If I want to have sex with "anyone" that's my choice. The meaning it has is irrelevant.

If sex is treated as something special for married people, it helps couples think of marriage as something important and helps bring them together even more.

And why should it be anymore special than drinking root beer together?

I am claiming it would be a help in keeping people together. Why squander it?

That assumes that keeping people together is the goal. My goal is keeping people happy, something that may very well require divorce.


It's all very harsh and dry but it's because I just don't think there's a way about it. There's nothing worse about it than drinking root beer with your friends so there's no reason it should be treated differently.

[ZeroAX]

If sex is treated as something special for married people, it helps couples think of marriage as something important and helps bring them together even more. From what I've seen, there are a ton of factors for a happy marriage, so let me make it clear I am not claiming this is a cure all that guarantees success, or you have no chance of a happy marriage if you don't do this. I am claiming it would be a help in keeping people together. Why squander it?

So you're saying we shouldn't have sex till we are married? Where are you from, Saudi Arabia?

[DinnerX]

So you're saying we shouldn't have sex till we are married?

Yep! That's what I said and have been saying.

Where are you from, Saudi Arabia?

Nope. Liiiiiitle bit off there.

Of course wether it's a basic need or not is irrelevant. Playing lots of videogames are not a basic need and you don't oppose it.

No I don't oppose playing video games. I think we've reached an impasse of sorts here. We're mainly arguing about the practicality of our two positions. As you sort of said, I don't think impratical/useless things are always wrong. I don't think the practical thing is always the right thing either.

I think sex out of marriage is not the best idea. I think that even thought the failure rate of protection is low the possible harm is to high to risk it. I also think the potential benefits are worth saving it for. I think it could be a help in keeping people happy about being together and thus making them not want a divorce. You disagree.

However we are both going to be biased in our assessment of the risks and benefits here, because of our moral beliefs. You think it should be fine and I don't.

Like I said to begin with, I enjoy debating to see other's opinions, but it seems to me we're starting to repeat ourselves so I doubt much more can be gained from this.

It's all very harsh and dry but it's because I just don't think there's a way about it.

Well, it really didn't seem to harsh or dry to me, so no worries. Bluntness is usually good IMO. I'm adamant about my position too and haven't beat around the bush much either.

I'm really glad you guys have taken the time to respond to my posts. Although I still disagree I do think I see your side of things better now.