I just finished Radiant Silvergun. It is a very good game. I'm having a hard time deciding, but I think I still prefer Ikaruga. But I don't really need to decide, they are both good.
I'm a bit divided on the scoring being related to the powering-up. I think I prefer in Ikaruga where the scoring and combos is extra and only "matters" to elite players. In RS even if I'm just trying to finish the game I should try to combo as powering up the weapons improves survivability.
Now, I finished RS in Saturn mode, Very Easy, and with player stock 10. The ship was powering up through my attempts as I saved progress (but I didn't get high-scores registered) so by the end I did my last run (and defeated the last boss) I was up to low twenties in each weapon level (A a bit higher than B and C).
I would like to try again in a more "default" challenge level, but I'm unsure on what the "default" should be here... Arcade mode? 3 credits perhaps?
I'm not looking to 1 cc it or do 1-up run on it (otherwise that would make the settings obvious) as I don't aspire to such a level of mastery (I have other games to play and limited time). An obvious thing to do is choosing "Game start" instead of loading so that the weapons start at low levels instead of powered up.
Similarly I got through Ikaruga (first on Easy, then on Normal) but using some credits (I don't remember, but I think it was less than 10 so I could have done it before "unlocking" the limitless continues). There is an analogous question: is there a "default" goal (more reasonable than 1cc-ing) but that normalizes the challenge? I mean, with limitless continues I reckon anyone can do it.
Ivo.
Finished Radiant Silvergun and Ikaruga, but...
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samsonlonghair
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Re: Finished Radiant Silvergun and Ikaruga, but...
I don't know Ivo. I think about these games differently. To me a shoot 'em up isn't really goal-oriented; the only goal is to survive.
When I play Ikaruga, it feels more meditative. After a few hours of playing, I'm not even upset about loosing a life or seeing a game over screen. I feel completely zen and just fall into the game the same way I fall into a game of Tetris.
When I play Ikaruga, it feels more meditative. After a few hours of playing, I'm not even upset about loosing a life or seeing a game over screen. I feel completely zen and just fall into the game the same way I fall into a game of Tetris.
Re: Finished Radiant Silvergun and Ikaruga, but...
I feel the same way about Ikaruga. I've only made it to the third boss IIRC, but every time I play it I never have that feeling of stress when I lose a life.samsonlonghair wrote:I don't know Ivo. I think about these games differently. To me a shoot 'em up isn't really goal-oriented; the only goal is to survive.
When I play Ikaruga, it feels more meditative. After a few hours of playing, I'm not even upset about loosing a life or seeing a game over screen. I feel completely zen and just fall into the game the same way I fall into a game of Tetris.
Another game that invokes such feelings is Rez.
Re: Finished Radiant Silvergun and Ikaruga, but...
First of all, I think shooters typically need to be compared in either the survival or high score (which is an elevated form of survival in most games) method of play, since that's how they are designed. A game can be credit-fed, but it really defeats the point. Even using credits, that mindset at least needs to be considered throughout.
That said, there really is no "default goal" of most shooters aside from the 1CC itself. High scores are tabulated based on surviving and unlimited credits and the scrolling nature of most shooters makes survival necessary for challenge. A person can certainly simply aim to die as little as possible, but true appreciation of a game like Ikaruga comes through mastery.
And therein lies my difference in opinion of the two games. Both are incredibly complicated shooters (albeit in very different ways), which is the primary complaint against them. High scores in either game can be arduous to the point of frustration. It requires extreme amounts of memorization, both in gameplay and in muscle memory.
Radiant Silvergun suffers more severely in the memorization department when it comes to direct gameplay, where Ikaruga suffers greater in terms of pure muscle memory. Though I used the word "suffer," these are actually focal points that fans of either games hold in high regard. Radiant Silvergun has an odd and complicated point system. There are different types of chains, secret bonuses, weapon level bonuses, merry bonuses, even scraping bonuses. This all leads to an incredibly convoluted point system, but one that leads to tons and tons of exploration and discovery. More importantly, despite its convolution, it never feels random (unlike scoring systems in games like Bakraid - suicide 50 times!). It's a game a person can play for years and still find something new in the game.
On the other end, Ikaruga is beautifully simple. Everything the player needs to do is right in front of them, but it's a matter of figuring out just how to do that and teaching the fingers to play along that's the supreme difficulty. Where Radiant Silvergun is more forgiving in terms of gameplay ability to achieve a high score, especially early on, Ikaruga is anything but. Getting anything past an A-grade on the first stage alone is incredibly difficult, requiring exact timing and reflexes. Where Radiant Silvergun promotes exploration, Ikaruga demands exacting precision; The game wants you to play exactly one way and the better you get at the game, the more you play the way the game wants you to. That, too, is the beauty of the game. Just watching the game is like watching poetry in gameplay form. There's an ebb and flow to every stage. It also serves, however, as the most monotonous quality of the game, as it requires so much repetition and memorization to master the game.
In a way, because of both games focus on memorization, they both strongly resemble horizontal shooters turned upright. This is why many fans of more Raizing- or Cave-like shooters simply aren't fans of Radiant Silvergun or Ikaruga. The focus isn't on twitch gameplay but of mastery through memorization.
In Radiant Silvergun in particular, the Arcade mode falters greatly because grinding bosses is necessary to power up weapons, which is terribly monotonous. The best way to demonstrate that to people unfamiliar with either game is to watch superplays of both Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun. Radiant Silvergun replays are incredibly long and the bosses are very boring to watch. Learning from this design error, Ikaruga actually incentives speed over point farming in all but the last boss by rewarding time bonuses. Radiant Silvergun improves dramatically, although gets dramatically easier, through the Saturn Mode. Saving the weapon progress is simply a less stressful way to play and doesn't require the monotony of grinding bosses. With that mode considered, I'd have to give the edge to Radiant Silvergun in my mind for simply being more fun. The weapon system is incredible, the enemies are diverse, the scoring system leaves so much to be discovered, and the bosses are simply epic.
Ikaruga, on the other hand, represents art in video games more than any other game I can think of. It's simply a beautiful thing to see the game be mastered and getting there is half the fun. It's also a beautifully simple game, but brutally difficult, just to 1CC the game even without challenging the score. I find mastering the game arduous, however, and I find myself having trouble just playing the game for fun, because I'm always driven to master some part of a stage rather than simply blow through it.
That said, there really is no "default goal" of most shooters aside from the 1CC itself. High scores are tabulated based on surviving and unlimited credits and the scrolling nature of most shooters makes survival necessary for challenge. A person can certainly simply aim to die as little as possible, but true appreciation of a game like Ikaruga comes through mastery.
And therein lies my difference in opinion of the two games. Both are incredibly complicated shooters (albeit in very different ways), which is the primary complaint against them. High scores in either game can be arduous to the point of frustration. It requires extreme amounts of memorization, both in gameplay and in muscle memory.
Radiant Silvergun suffers more severely in the memorization department when it comes to direct gameplay, where Ikaruga suffers greater in terms of pure muscle memory. Though I used the word "suffer," these are actually focal points that fans of either games hold in high regard. Radiant Silvergun has an odd and complicated point system. There are different types of chains, secret bonuses, weapon level bonuses, merry bonuses, even scraping bonuses. This all leads to an incredibly convoluted point system, but one that leads to tons and tons of exploration and discovery. More importantly, despite its convolution, it never feels random (unlike scoring systems in games like Bakraid - suicide 50 times!). It's a game a person can play for years and still find something new in the game.
On the other end, Ikaruga is beautifully simple. Everything the player needs to do is right in front of them, but it's a matter of figuring out just how to do that and teaching the fingers to play along that's the supreme difficulty. Where Radiant Silvergun is more forgiving in terms of gameplay ability to achieve a high score, especially early on, Ikaruga is anything but. Getting anything past an A-grade on the first stage alone is incredibly difficult, requiring exact timing and reflexes. Where Radiant Silvergun promotes exploration, Ikaruga demands exacting precision; The game wants you to play exactly one way and the better you get at the game, the more you play the way the game wants you to. That, too, is the beauty of the game. Just watching the game is like watching poetry in gameplay form. There's an ebb and flow to every stage. It also serves, however, as the most monotonous quality of the game, as it requires so much repetition and memorization to master the game.
In a way, because of both games focus on memorization, they both strongly resemble horizontal shooters turned upright. This is why many fans of more Raizing- or Cave-like shooters simply aren't fans of Radiant Silvergun or Ikaruga. The focus isn't on twitch gameplay but of mastery through memorization.
In Radiant Silvergun in particular, the Arcade mode falters greatly because grinding bosses is necessary to power up weapons, which is terribly monotonous. The best way to demonstrate that to people unfamiliar with either game is to watch superplays of both Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun. Radiant Silvergun replays are incredibly long and the bosses are very boring to watch. Learning from this design error, Ikaruga actually incentives speed over point farming in all but the last boss by rewarding time bonuses. Radiant Silvergun improves dramatically, although gets dramatically easier, through the Saturn Mode. Saving the weapon progress is simply a less stressful way to play and doesn't require the monotony of grinding bosses. With that mode considered, I'd have to give the edge to Radiant Silvergun in my mind for simply being more fun. The weapon system is incredible, the enemies are diverse, the scoring system leaves so much to be discovered, and the bosses are simply epic.
Ikaruga, on the other hand, represents art in video games more than any other game I can think of. It's simply a beautiful thing to see the game be mastered and getting there is half the fun. It's also a beautifully simple game, but brutally difficult, just to 1CC the game even without challenging the score. I find mastering the game arduous, however, and I find myself having trouble just playing the game for fun, because I'm always driven to master some part of a stage rather than simply blow through it.
Re: Finished Radiant Silvergun and Ikaruga, but...
Nice read Crux. I really think Ikaruga is extremely, extremely elegant.crux wrote: (Good post)
In RS, maybe I'll max out the weapons to 33 and try to 1cc it in Saturn mode, should be somewhat easier with weapons maxed.
Or play Arcade mode with max stock (10) and see if I can 1cc it then.
Ivo.
Re: Finished Radiant Silvergun and Ikaruga, but...
Always on Saturn mode, I finished it on Normal with some continues and actually managed to 1cc (with stock 3) in Very Easy.
I'll see if I can also get some high-scores.
Ivo.
I'll see if I can also get some high-scores.
Ivo.