Mosques

[vash23n]

"If an atheist kills someone because they want to, and a religous person kills someone for God, there is no logical distinction between who's better since both actions and methods had identical outcomes."

But why would someone kill someone for god if they didn't believe in god? It's an enabler. Say the atheist dude kills a guy who slept with his wife, if that guy hadn't slept with his wife he never would have killed him. If the bible hadn't told the other guy to kill someone, he wouldn't have done it.

Again, I am an atheist, but I feel it should be pointed out that, even if people stopped being religious, there would still be plenty of people who commit murders because they are mentally disturbed. Most of the people who kill in the name of god are just looking for an excuse because there is something wrong with them. Take away god and they would most likely still commit the crime. With Islam, take away the religion, and the fundamentalists would use their hatred of Western civilization as an excuse. With Christians who blow up abortion clinics, take away god and these people might still carry out the crime because of their own feelings on the subject. I know plenty of atheists who are hardcore prolifers.

Back in the day, there were plenty of wars and murders committed in the of god. These days, there are certainly fundamentalists who still kill in the name of a god, but there are certainly still fundamentalists who still kill while having nothing to do with god - such as political regimes who forbid religion in their countries. There are also plenty of sickos who kill people in the name of being assholes.

[vash23n]

The first one should be properly translated "murder." I think we have the King James version to blame for that one, because it certainly has persisted.

The second verse you mention is not a call to murder. The chapter in question (it's in Deuteronomy) is discussing societal law. That verse is describing a crime that at the time was punishable by death. Just as not all sex was adultery, not every instance of killing was murder.

Well said. A lot of times, when the religious and the non-religions argue or debate, they forget to take history into account. Seems atheists and the religious take the Bible way too literally sometimes.

[Jrecee]

Take away god and they would most likely still commit the crime. With Islam, take away the religion, and the fundamentalists would use their hatred of Western civilization as an excuse. With Christians who blow up abortion clinics, take away god and these people might still carry out the crime because of their own feelings on the subject. I know plenty of atheists who are hardcore prolifers.

The fundamentalists hate western civilization because of of current and past religion. A christian who blows up an abortion clinic does so because the beliefs of his christian parents were taught to him.

Most of these feelings are deeply rooted in religion. The idea here is that if you just suddenly make someone who holds christian values suddenly stop believing in god, that they will still have those values. The values of religion are ingrained into them from the start. Now if you removed religion from them from birth, they wouldn't hold these values.

[Jrecee]

The first one should be properly translated "murder." I think we have the King James version to blame for that one, because it certainly has persisted.

The second verse you mention is not a call to murder. The chapter in question (it's in Deuteronomy) is discussing societal law. That verse is describing a crime that at the time was punishable by death. Just as not all sex was adultery, not every instance of killing was murder.

So god says it's ok to kill when the man made law says it's ok?

[vash23n]

Take away god and they would most likely still commit the crime. With Islam, take away the religion, and the fundamentalists would use their hatred of Western civilization as an excuse. With Christians who blow up abortion clinics, take away god and these people might still carry out the crime because of their own feelings on the subject. I know plenty of atheists who are hardcore prolifers.

The fundamentalists hate western civilization because of of current and past religion. A christian who blows up an abortion clinic does so because the beliefs of his christian parents were taught to him.

Most of these feelings are deeply rooted in religion. The idea here is that if you just suddenly make someone who holds christian values suddenly stop believing in god, that they will still have those values. The values of religion are ingrained into them from the start. Now if you removed religion from them from birth, they wouldn't hold these values.

Historically, there are countries filled with non-westerners who hate western civilization because of many more reasons than religion. Take India. Aside from the more wealthy of the population who represent a minority, many strongly dislike western civilization because of the history of exploitation by western powers. Exploitation not done in the name of god, by the way, but in the name of money. In Africa, there is plenty of hatred for westerners for similar reasons. In China and Cuba, there exists a hatred for many "western" powers (this is where the term western sort of breaks down as Cuba is still considered an impoverished nation along the lines of many in the Middle East, while Japan is in line with Europe and the US while geographically in the East... so forgive me for keeping things simple and still using the word western) because of ideological/political differences. Especially in the case of China and other communist nations located in Asia, the cruelty that has been inflicted upon people is comparable to any that has been carried out in the name of a god.

So the point I was trying to make was that horrors are carried out all over the world - if you take away religion, wipe it clean from history, will that eliminate these horrors? Absolutely not. I don't think things would change much at all as another excuse to carry out these crimes would be embraced, whether political, philosophical, ideological, racial, whatever. Perhaps it is human nature, which is a topic to be discussed at another time.

[Limewater]

The first one should be properly translated "murder." I think we have the King James version to blame for that one, because it certainly has persisted.

The second verse you mention is not a call to murder. The chapter in question (it's in Deuteronomy) is discussing societal law. That verse is describing a crime that at the time was punishable by death. Just as not all sex was adultery, not every instance of killing was murder.

So god says it's ok to kill when the man made law says it's ok?

Man-made law? Where do you get that from what I wrote? The law in Deuteronomy is held to be from G^d. So, I guess you could say that He says it's OK to kill when and how He says that it's OK.

[Jrecee]

Take away god and they would most likely still commit the crime. With Islam, take away the religion, and the fundamentalists would use their hatred of Western civilization as an excuse. With Christians who blow up abortion clinics, take away god and these people might still carry out the crime because of their own feelings on the subject. I know plenty of atheists who are hardcore prolifers.

The fundamentalists hate western civilization because of of current and past religion. A christian who blows up an abortion clinic does so because the beliefs of his christian parents were taught to him.

Most of these feelings are deeply rooted in religion. The idea here is that if you just suddenly make someone who holds christian values suddenly stop believing in god, that they will still have those values. The values of religion are ingrained into them from the start. Now if you removed religion from them from birth, they wouldn't hold these values.

Historically, there are countries filled with non-westerners who hate western civilization because of many more reasons than religion. Take India. Aside from the more wealthy of the population who represent a minority, many strongly dislike western civilization because of the history of exploitation by western powers. Exploitation not done in the name of god, by the way, but in the name of money. In Africa, there is plenty of hatred for westerners for similar reasons. In China and Cuba, there exists a hatred for many "western" powers (this is where the term western sort of breaks down as Cuba is still considered an impoverished nation along the lines of many in the Middle East, while Japan is in line with Europe and the US while geographically in the East... so forgive me for keeping things simple and still using the word western) because of ideological/political differences. Especially in the case of China and other communist nations located in Asia, the cruelty that has been inflicted upon people is comparable to any that has been carried out in the name of a god.

So the point I was trying to make was that horrors are carried out all over the world - if you take away religion, wipe it clean from history, will that eliminate these horrors? Absolutely not. I don't think things would change much at all as another excuse to carry out these crimes would be embraced, whether political, philosophical, ideological, racial, whatever. Perhaps it is human nature, which is a topic to be discussed at another time.

Ignoring massive questions about human nature that I'm not even going to discuss on a forum (or within my own brain), can't most of us agree on the separation of church and state? This conversation went from mosques and bigotry, to the creation of the universe and the intricacies of human nature.

In the end we all have our sides and we try to protect them. But we have to live within one world, continent, country, or state. You can only break it down so far, but people with conflicting views will always have to share a drinking fountain.

Most humans have the same basic moral code. Don't kill, steal, or otherwise hurt other human beings. These basic morals are what we have to build our society on. When it comes down to where we came from, or where we going, the scientific viewpoint held by scientists is what we have to base education on.

On issues like abortion, it has so far been left up to individuals to make the decision on what goes on within their own body.

As an atheist, the danger I see is these things being attacked by people who want everyone to share their viewpoint. I guess that's it.

[Jrecee]

The first one should be properly translated "murder." I think we have the King James version to blame for that one, because it certainly has persisted.

The second verse you mention is not a call to murder. The chapter in question (it's in Deuteronomy) is discussing societal law. That verse is describing a crime that at the time was punishable by death. Just as not all sex was adultery, not every instance of killing was murder.

So god says it's ok to kill when the man made law says it's ok?

Man-made law? Where do you get that from what I wrote? The law in Deuteronomy is held to be from G^d. So, I guess you could say that He says it's OK to kill when and how He says that it's OK.

Your wording saying "a crime that at the time was punishable by death" is what confused me. So it was a crime in god's eyes? Are you suggesting that in the last few thousand years god changed his mind?

[vash23n]

In the end we all have our sides and we try to protect them. But we have to live within one world, continent, country, or state. You can only break it down so far, but people with conflicting views will always have to share a drinking fountain.

Most humans have the same basic moral code. Don't kill, steal, or otherwise hurt other human beings. These basic morals are what we have to build our society on. When it comes down to where we came from, or where we going, the scientific viewpoint held by scientists is what we have to base education on.

This is the best the most sensible thing I have read so far. I left the science part because, personally, I do believe in science and not religion, but you perfectly stated how I wish the entire world felt/lived.

[Niode]

Your all wrong.