Treasure rocks, but they seriously failed at music.

Talk about just about anything else that is non-gaming here, but keep it clean
JJJ
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Post by JJJ »

Thats a good question. I'm not really sure of great music on Saturn thats sequenced - I'm new to Saturn. Is Panzer Dragoon 2 sequenced?

I think its pretty obvious that probably no 3rd-party for Saturn had the music budget or talent Square did with any of their PS1 RPGs though. Square just made awesome music, and if they'd have made a saturn RPG I'd expect it to sound even better.
Mozgus wrote:Ok anyone who says Saturn's music capabilities outweigh the PS1's is totally batshit crazy. If they technically are better, why the hell were they never utilized? In fact, I'll make this interesting. Name one game from Saturn, N64, or Dreamcast which uses sequenced music that sounds better than what is found in Chrono Cross or Final Fantasy 8/9. All Squaresoft, but I don't care. The music was stunning in quality. Especially the string instruments.
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Mozgus
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Post by Mozgus »

JJJ wrote:Thats a good question. I'm not really sure of great music on Saturn thats sequenced - I'm new to Saturn. Is Panzer Dragoon 2 sequenced?

I think its pretty obvious that probably no 3rd-party for Saturn had the music budget or talent Square did with any of their PS1 RPGs though. Square just made awesome music, and if they'd have made a saturn RPG I'd expect it to sound even better.
Mozgus wrote:Ok anyone who says Saturn's music capabilities outweigh the PS1's is totally batshit crazy. If they technically are better, why the hell were they never utilized? In fact, I'll make this interesting. Name one game from Saturn, N64, or Dreamcast which uses sequenced music that sounds better than what is found in Chrono Cross or Final Fantasy 8/9. All Squaresoft, but I don't care. The music was stunning in quality. Especially the string instruments.
That's not quite how it works dude. No amount of budget will make the music higher quality if the system doesn't allow it. It can improve the composition yes, quality no. There are a ton of PS1 games that have great tunes, but those squaresoft titles just sprung to mind. I don't think Square did anything too special like developing their own music engine for the system. Maybe I'm wrong, but the people who rip PSF files might know better. The FF games were some of the first and easiest music they were able to rip and emulate in PSF.

Panzer 2 does use sequenced music. Again, the composition is amazing, the quality isn't, though it's some of the best quality the saturn put out.
JJJ
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Post by JJJ »

I disagree. Sample quality is a major factor. This is my job - I sell samples. My website is www.nucleus-soundlab.com if you have any interest...

Still, the major problem seems to be the lack of sample RAM on Saturn. From a Saturn FAQ I found:
"5.4 How come the audio is certain Saturn games sounds poor?
-----------------------------------------------------------

Although, the components used in the Saturn's SCSP chipset are of a
high quality, the system has some unfortunate limitations that creep
up every now and then. On certain games, digital PCM samples can
sound muffled and/or scratchy.

All Saturn PCM samples must be loaded into audio RAM while in raw
form, where as the Playstation supports hardware compression. Loading
files in raw form naturally means a larger file size, which in turn
means that overall sample quality will suffer in an effort to cram
everything in. This is particularly bad for games that require a
great number of samples loaded into memory all at once. Virtua
Fighter II is a good example of this. Many fighting games by Capcom
and SNK reveal similar problems. So while the Staurn might have an
audio suite rivaling that of the Playstation, memory limitations
can stymie attempts playback samples at the highest quality.

Streamed yellowbook audio plays directly off the CD. It does not need
to be loaded into RAM, and thus does not have the memory constraint
problems that the PCM samples can face. Macross DYRL, for instance,
streams Apple AIFF files recorded at 22Khz 16 bit stereo as its
soundtrack (and sounds great!).

Good programmers can often produce excellent digital sound from the
Saturn, while games that were programmed for another platform, or
directly ported from the PSX can often sound rather crude.

"Saturn's sound hardware is phenomenal. It's way, way, better than
the PlayStation's sound - you can basically plug in a synthesizer
and play it through MIDI."

--Saturn Developer, Next Generation, December 1995"
512kb (4mbits) of samples is not much... The PS1 has the same sample RAM but it does hardware ADPCM compression to save sometimes 4:1 in memory size. This is great for memory, though ADPCM compression can have bad, noisey artifacts. Still if you have only 512kb of RAM to work with I'd take 4x the ADPCM compressed samples any day!

It seems that, like the Saturn as a whole, while the individual chip is more powerful than the PS1 sound hardware on paper - it doesn't really matter since Sega made poor design choices and hamstrung the Saturn with no hardware compression and small memory.
Mozgus wrote: That's not quite how it works dude. No amount of budget will make the music higher quality if the system doesn't allow it. It can improve the composition yes, quality no. There are a ton of PS1 games that have great tunes, but those squaresoft titles just sprung to mind. I don't think Square did anything too special like developing their own music engine for the system. Maybe I'm wrong, but the people who rip PSF files might know better. The FF games were some of the first and easiest music they were able to rip and emulate in PSF.

Panzer 2 does use sequenced music. Again, the composition is amazing, the quality isn't, though it's some of the best quality the saturn put out.
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marurun
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Post by marurun »

JJJ, good point.

Technically the Saturn sound processor is MUCH beefier than the PSX processor, but the Saturn kept running afoul of the inability to compress samples. Thus, many games had to use lower quality samples to fit them all into the available RAM space.

That said, the Saturn did a good job with non-CD streaming audio, for example ADX audio. Grandia had great music and that was all streamed ADX. Furthermore, there are some games which, through creative use of software sample compression and other means did really get good quality and performance. I haven't played a Saturn game in forever so you'll have to pardon me if nothing leaps immediately to mind. In fact, I haven't played many games in a while because my grad classes this fall are pure evil (and hard work). I think the Parodius games were streamed or sequenced audio and they sounded great on the Saturn.

And I disagree with the "quality" of the music in FF8 and FF9. It's all quite derivative and distinctly MIDI sounding to my ears. I was not impressed. I completely gave up on FF9 a bit ago because combat was way too boring and the music was bland and driving me out of my head. The combat music in particular sounded more like elevator jazz than anything that should be getting me worked up for a fight.
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marurun
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Post by marurun »

Oh, Mozgus, related to the Dynamite Headdy sound quality issues you mentioned, that might be an artifact of either an emulator or a cheaper Genesis. I hang out on the pcenginefx forums and there are some folks who also hang out there from sega-16. Apparently the Genesis has several internal revisions, and some of later Genesis 1s and most of the Genesis 2s (a large number of models, including mine) have inferior sound chips in them. Apparently if you have one of the nicer Genesis models, early Genesis 1 or a Genesis 3, or one of the rare non-sucky Genesis 2s, the quality of the sound is improved greatly. I listened to a recording a fellow made in order to compare and Dynamite Headdy's sound is actually really smooth and high-quality on a Genesis that wasn't cheaped-down.

There is a related video encoding problem as well. Most of the models with cheap sound also have a cheap video encoder and so look kinda like crap as well as sounding like it. And emulators apparently don't handle Genesis sound very well, either.

So indeed, most Genesis users did hear crap all the time, but a few lucky ones who bought early (or very late) do indeed get to hear stuff that does not suck.
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Post by durkada »

marurun wrote:Oh, Mozgus, related to the Dynamite Headdy sound quality issues you mentioned, that might be an artifact of either an emulator or a cheaper Genesis. I hang out on the pcenginefx forums and there are some folks who also hang out there from sega-16. Apparently the Genesis has several internal revisions, and some of later Genesis 1s and most of the Genesis 2s (a large number of models, including mine) have inferior sound chips in them. Apparently if you have one of the nicer Genesis models, early Genesis 1 or a Genesis 3, or one of the rare non-sucky Genesis 2s, the quality of the sound is improved greatly. I listened to a recording a fellow made in order to compare and Dynamite Headdy's sound is actually really smooth and high-quality on a Genesis that wasn't cheaped-down.

There is a related video encoding problem as well. Most of the models with cheap sound also have a cheap video encoder and so look kinda like crap as well as sounding like it. And emulators apparently don't handle Genesis sound very well, either.

So indeed, most Genesis users did hear crap all the time, but a few lucky ones who bought early (or very late) do indeed get to hear stuff that does not suck.
Interesting stuff -- got a link on those audio comparisons? I'd certainly like to hear the difference.
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Mozgus
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Post by Mozgus »

So it seems that Ikaruga on Gamecube didn't use sequenced music. They converted the DC music to ADP format, which is streamed. Anyway I did a digital rip, which should be superior to the analog recordings floating around out there. The thing is there is a mysterious 11th song that is not on anyone's recorded sets. Can any Ikaruga fans tell me the location this song plays at on gamecube?

http://www.stevemv.com/storage/SONG01A.mp3

I spent all last night ripping the MGS Twin Snakes music, only to realize 1/3rd of the music is completely fuzzy in my memory and I can't place it. I'm ganna hand it off to other rippers who own the game and can finish it. There has never been a decent music set for MGSTS in terms of completeness, or quality. You would think Metal Gear is a popular series, but no one gives a damn about the music.
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Post by baphomet_irl »

Mozgus wrote: Um...shit. Defeated. Name another! That's uh....uh special case. Actually I think it is. Didn't it just use a series of streamed segments and not the actual synthesizer?
Im pretty sure the sounds in Rez are 'just' triggered samples/wav's, they MAY have some filter effects using hardware though I dunno, but if my DC could make acid basslines like that through hardware, Id be desperately trying to connect my USB keyboard into it somehow eheh
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