Immersion

[J T]

I hate to rain on everyone's parade, but the idea of immersion in video games is laughable. Seriously. What happens if someone shoots you in a Call of Duty game? Or most shooters for that matter? Do you suffer a serious injury? Do you lose use of your arm? Do you start limping? Or do you die because you got hit in the head?

I think you are confusing realism with immersion. Though elements of realism can help increase immersion, they are different concepts. The one first person shooter I have played where you do die quickly after being shot is Red Orchestra. That game had horrible immersion because you couldn't stay alive for more than 5 seconds before you were dead and waiting for the next round. There was no time to get lost in the world of the game because you met your demise before you even had time to get your fingers centerd on the awsd keys. Granted, some people eventually do get immersed in Red Orchestra, but you have to be exceptionally good at the game and there is a steep learning curve.

You do have a point though that a game can do something so unrealistic that it can ruin your suspension of disbelief and pull you out of an immersed state. It's like whenever I see a movie and they show a phone number. As soon as I see that the first three digits are 555 I'm immediately reminded that I am watching a movie again and suddenly I'm aware of the people around me, the smell of popcorn, the cushion I'm sitting on. It kind of pulls me out of it. But if you think too much about most movies, you can break that suspension of disbelief and immersion is ruined. There's this funny scene in one of the Austin Powers movies where they are talkiing about confusing nature of time travel and Austin is told to not think about it too much and just enjoy himself, they then turn to the camera and tell the audience to do the same.

I do get your point about Modern Warfare though. When I first learned to play the game, I did lose immersion whenever I would get shot up, but only had to hide behind a wall for 5 seconds before my character would be totally fine. In a way, this is more of a problem for a game like Modern Warfare that tries so hard to be realistic in every other regard. Games that shoot for realism make it all the more clear whenever they are not being realistic. The Halo example you gave is a good one because they give you some quick rationale for why you are near invincible (you have a really cool space suit) and that rationale will be good enough to get the average person's brain to stop questioning the realism and disbelief is suspended, thus making immersion easier. Sometimes I think it's better to just throw realism completely out the window, so the audience doesn't have to be bothered by the game breaking the laws of physics. I'm actually excited for the upcoming game Just Cause 2 because the game designers have said that they don't care about realism. They have thrown out realistic physics in favor of fun control and cool visuals.

I also think back to when Ghouls n' Ghosts first introduced gamers to the "double jump". The double jump is a ridiciulous concept- the ability to jump again while you are in the air from your first jump. It doesn't make any sense for realism, but it's great for play control. It made it so that you actually had a chance against the waves of monsters in that game. This aided flow, which in turn aided immersion.

So, suspension of disbelief is an important factor for immersion, but it's not the same thing. Realism can aid immersion, but it's not the same thing. Flow is an important factor for immersion, but it's not the same thing either. But suspending disbelief, realism, and flow all tell us something about what makes something immersive. But what do they tell us? What else is there to understand about this immersion concept? I've typed enough for one post, so I'll let you guys talk about that for awhile and come back with some more thoughts later.

[Gamerforlife]

I hate to rain on everyone's parade, but the idea of immersion in video games is laughable. Seriously. What happens if someone shoots you in a Call of Duty game? Or most shooters for that matter? Do you suffer a serious injury? Do you lose use of your arm? Do you start limping? Or do you die because you got hit in the head?

I think you are confusing realism with immersion. Though elements of realism can help increase immersion, they are different concepts. The one first person shooter I have played where you do die quickly after being shot is Red Orchestra. That game had horrible immersion because you couldn't stay alive for more than 5 seconds before you were dead and waiting for the next round. There was no time to get lost in the world of the game because you met your demise before you even had time to get your fingers centerd on the awsd keys. Granted, some people eventually do get immersed in Red Orchestra, but you have to be exceptionally good at the game and there is a steep learning curve.

You do have a point though that a game can do something so unrealistic that it can ruin your suspension of disbelief and pull you out of an immersed state. It's like whenever I see a movie and they show a phone number. As soon as I see that the first three digits are 555 I'm immediately reminded that I am watching a movie again and suddenly I'm aware of the people around me, the smell of popcorn, the cushion I'm sitting on. It kind of pulls me out of it. But if you think too much about most movies, you can break that suspension of disbelief and immersion is ruined. There's this funny scene in one of the Austin Powers movies where they are talkiing about confusing nature of time travel and Austin is told to not think about it too much and just enjoy himself, they then turn to the camera and tell the audience to do the same.

I do get your point about Modern Warfare though. When I first learned to play the game, I did lose immersion whenever I would get shot up, but only had to hide behind a wall for 5 seconds before my character would be totally fine. In a way, this is more of a problem for a game like Modern Warfare that tries so hard to be realistic in every other regard. Games that shoot for realism make it all the more clear whenever they are not being realistic. The Halo example you gave is a good one because they give you some quick rationale for why you are near invincible (you have a really cool space suit) and that rationale will be good enough to get the average person's brain to stop questioning the realism and disbelief is suspended, thus making immersion easier. Sometimes I think it's better to just throw realism completely out the window, so the audience doesn't have to be bothered by the game breaking the laws of physics. I'm actually excited for the upcoming game Just Cause 2 because the game designers have said that they don't care about realism. They have thrown out realistic physics in favor of fun control and cool visuals.

I also think back to when Ghouls n' Ghosts first introduced gamers to the "double jump". The double jump is a ridiciulous concept- the ability to jump again while you are in the air from your first jump. It doesn't make any sense for realism, but it's great for play control. It made it so that you actually had a chance against the waves of monsters in that game. This aided flow, which in turn aided immersion.

So, suspension of disbelief is an important factor for immersion, but it's not the same thing. Realism can aid immersion, but it's not the same thing. Flow is an important factor for immersion, but it's not the same thing either. But suspending disbelief, realism, and flow all tell us something about what makes something immersive. But what do they tell us? What else is there to understand about this immersion concept? I've typed enough for one post, so I'll let you guys talk about that for awhile and come back with some more thoughts later.

I guess for me, there is no immersion if I can't buy into a game's reality. That experience that has been mentioned here. When you stop playing a game and then suddenly become aware of your surroundings, remembering that you're on a couch and that your holding a controller. I very rarely have that experience, because most games are so nonsensical I CAN'T lost myself in their worlds. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy a game that doesn't immerse me, I just don't get lost in its world. Personally, in my eyes immersion and realism are one and the same. You can't have one without the other, but that's just my perspective. That's one reason I like cartoony games, especially fourth wall breakers like the Monkey Island series, because anything goes in that kind of environment

Sci fi and fantasy games are great too, because they can explain all the stuff that doesn't make sense. I love how Dragon Age mentions how healing spells instantly stitch up a wound, which is why a character can suffer all kinds of deadly attacks in a battle and then just walk around like nothing happened afterward. I also love how Bioshock's story explains why you respawn when you die as well as why all of the stabs, shots, etc. you take don't kill you(because you're genetics have been enhanced through splicing). I wish more game developers didn't take stuff like that for granted.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why Lara Croft, who runs around in a tank top and shorts, can stand in front of a bunch of mercenaries, get shot up like she was in front of a firing squad and just stand firing back like she's a machine. I HATE stuff like that. Like most gamers though, I've learned to tolerate this kind of nonsense, because that's just how video games are, but I'm getting kind of sick of how we just accept that video games are like that. I'm waiting for developers to get more creative and look for ways to make games more realistc. That will be the day we have REAL next gen gaming and immersion will pretty much happen with EVERYTHING we play.

[Luke]

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why Lara Croft, who runs around in a tank top and shorts, can stand in front of a bunch of mercenaries, get shot up like she was in front of a firing squad and just stand firing back like she's a machine. I HATE stuff like that.

That will be the day we have REAL next gen gaming and immersion will pretty much happen with EVERYTHING we play.

Very interesting point of view.

What are your favorite video games?

[(-_-)]

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why Lara Croft, who runs around in a tank top and shorts, can stand in front of a bunch of mercenaries, get shot up like she was in front of a firing squad and just stand firing back like she's a machine. I HATE stuff like that. Like most gamers though, I've learned to tolerate this kind of nonsense, because that's just how video games are, but I'm getting kind of sick of how we just accept that video games are like that. I'm waiting for developers to get more creative and look for ways to make games more realistc. That will be the day we have REAL next gen gaming and immersion will pretty much happen with EVERYTHING we play.

I think Demons Souls is one of the most immersive games I've played lately. Maybe ever. I was actually scared to go around a corner, I panicked if I heard a sound, I was able to actually try to assess my situation and find the best possible solution that required the least amount of confrontation. And unlike Lara, if you get hit by a sword, you're screwed. If you get hit again you're probably dead.

[J T]

"Calling for immersion in videogames is an unnecessary restriction. Unnecessary because videogames quite easily involve the player without having to trick her into thinking that she isn't playing a game. Videogame worlds are fascinating and full of potential precisely because they are not real."

Full article on the non-necessity of immersion here:
http://kotaku.com/5603786/against-immersion

[Gamerforlife]

Bumping this as we have another recent topic about immersion that includes a handy link to this thread

"Calling for immersion in videogames is an unnecessary restriction. Unnecessary because videogames quite easily involve the player without having to trick her into thinking that she isn't playing a game. Videogame worlds are fascinating and full of potential precisely because they are not real."

Full article on the non-necessity of immersion here:
http://kotaku.com/5603786/against-immersion

I don't think I ever actually read that until now. It makes some good points and I can see how immersion and realism are separate concepts. It argues a good case for lack of immersion having merit as well and I can say all that having only read half the article.

I will say though that realism is just a thing that appeals to me personally, even if it can be considered a separate thing from immersion. I just like logical explanations for how things work in a game world. However, I love cartoon games as well, because realism as we know it doesn't apply to their worlds. We see this nicely illustrated in how the Roger Rabbit movie contrasts the physics and rules of the world of the cartoon characters and those of ours. Part of why I love cartoony platform games like the Sly Cooper series is that I can turn my brain off and not nitpick about why the characters can survive things that would kill real people. I understand that things just work that way in cartoon worlds. I grew up watching Looney Tunes like many of us. I just think of a cartoon game's world as a separate universe or reality. Normally, death doesn't really exist for cartoon characters, which became an important plot point in the Roger Rabbit movie, where a way to actually kill a cartoon character was discovered.

I think lack of realism in a game that plays in a more realistic setting kind of hurts the storytelling. We are presented with a protagonist in a game's cutscenes who is mortal and must struggle to stay alive while constantly putting his life in danger to help others. That becomes key to his character. Yet, in actual gameplay that character is a superhero who can take on hundreds of armed men and absorb bullets like Superman. That's two completely different characters and yet the game's story wants me to believe they are one and the same. That doesn't work for me personally. That's partially why I don't like games like Uncharted 1, 2 and 3. There are two completely different Nathan Drakes in that game. Which one is the real one?

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why Lara Croft, who runs around in a tank top and shorts, can stand in front of a bunch of mercenaries, get shot up like she was in front of a firing squad and just stand firing back like she's a machine. I HATE stuff like that.

That will be the day we have REAL next gen gaming and immersion will pretty much happen with EVERYTHING we play.

Very interesting point of view.

What are your favorite video games?

I tend to like a lot of games where realism either doesn't exist(cartoony platform games)or the lack thereof can be easily explained(Sci Fi games, comic book games or fantasy games like rpgs). I can't get into a game that tries very hard to be realistic yet plays by non-realistic video game rules. This is a large reason why I avoid most first person and third person shooters, but will occasionally play one that has a Sci Fi setting(Bioshock, the original Halo, Half Life 2, etc.). Characters in those games are effectively superhuman, either through genetic enhancement or super suits

[The Last Horseman]

Immersion is great when I can get it. Games with lots of little side stories, or have there own happenings amaze me. Or games that I can listen to the soundtrack, and just drown out everything else. Rez anyone?

One example is Skyrim. I picked it up the other day. Yesterday, I put it in, put an Amon Amarth record on the turntable, and took off. I came upon a small fort, and walked in. I was immediatly ambushed by bandits, and with perfect timing, the record had gotten to "Guardians of Asgard" I was in an epic battle, with an epic song. Then out of nowhere, a saber toothed lion lands in the middle of the fort, attacking my enemies. And then, in an epic roar, a dragon lands. I do end up dying, but until that point I was so immersed...

[Xeogred]

For me I think atmosphere is a huge key thing when it comes to immersion. And I myself usually get far more immersed in sci-fi or very fictional titles. Deus Ex is a master game in this regard that comes to mind. Like Hobie said (he'll love me quoting him for Deus Ex...), it's every little detail that counts. There's so much detail in the world of Deus Ex that it just feels like I'm completely invested and glued to the screen with what's going on, wanting to know and do everything. Metroid Prime was another good more recent example of game that just totally took me to another world. And on that note Super Metroid, and Link to the Past still remain to be among the most immersive games out there that I've ever played. Nowadays I know Link to the Past like the back of my hand, but growing up with it when I was younger, I felt lost in that enormous world, then there was the Dark World, and the game just felt utterly massive. It seemed like every time I rented the game I'd discover new things here and there, it was an amazing experience.

System Shock 2 and Unreal are some good ones too that I played last year. Unreal has next to no narrative at all, the story is like as deep as the original Doom's. But the music, atmosphere, and visuals do the storytelling and everything in those departments were SO good, it just once again gave me that feeling like I was completely pulled into this other world. I don't feel like I become the avatar or anything, but yeah I was totally invested in the game and it wasn't me just playing a game, it was an experience. As for System Shock 2, it goes without saying. Brilliant game.

[Key-Glyph]

Realism is indeed one route to immersion, but I kind of wish that route would be abandoned for a little while. The more realistic something is, the more likely I am to pick out visuals that break this immersion.

I completely agree, and you get bonus points for having a username that made me laugh.

I am impressed by realism in video games from a technical standpoint, but it does absolutely nothing for me in terms of play. I prefer a game experience that's stylized from the ground-up and built on its own rules, because it will be consistent with itself. Consistency and a game's follow-through on what it's taught me to expect -- in other words, its obeying of its own tropes -- are the most important factors for keeping me sucked in. When Guybrush addresses me directly in the Secret of Monkey Island, for example, it doesn't distract me because his doing so makes sense within the gameplay. When a game's goal is to be "the real world," though, it will do nothing but constantly remind me that it's not in so many little ways, all of which it will itself try to ignore... and then suddenly I'll get the sense that it's trying to hard, and I'll feel embarrassed for it.

Here's something interesting I've been thinking about, though. If I'm immersed in a game and it openly cheats against me, I get jarred out of the fantasy of play -- but when I'm expecting the game to cheat against me (or at the very least be ridiculously hard on purpose) and personify it in a Me vs. It battle-of-wits scenario, I can get immersed in that. So for me it's not always the maintaining of the fantasy or the blurring of the boundary between me and the machine that gets me lost in the gameplay. I can imagine the console as my challenger and get emotionally involved in my success or failure against it.

[Tempest]

Part of why I love cartoony platform games like the Sly Cooper series is that I can turn my brain off and not nitpick about why the characters can survive things that would kill real people. I understand that things just work that way in cartoon worlds.

I love those sorts of games for the same reason. Most people don't understand that and tell me I'm weird for playing "kiddy" games. I play games to relax and when I am immersed in a game that based in a different world (cartoony, fantasy or sci-fi), I don't have to think too much or worry about the consequences of my actions: it's not real and conversely that, to me, makes it more real, or more immersive. Just being in a "foreign" world and learning about it through interacting with it makes it immersive and enjoyable.

Like others have mentioned, immersion, to me, is about being sucked into the game world, and not noticing that I'm playing a videogame. It has nothing to do with realism: only making the world and gameplay seem real within the context of the game and its story (if it has one).

This is a very interesting topic.