Healthcare

[Limewater]

"Competition" is one of those key words that makes free market fundamentalists moist.

Everyone on both sides knows that using the term "competition" to describe a government option is cheap, hollow pandering. You seem to be aware of it as well.

I dunno, I tend to think that human life is human life. Death by terrorist attack is not fundamentally more tragic or worth fighting than death by cancer. Given that we have only so many resources, we should put them to use in the way that saves the most lives. That way is universal health care.

If you really believe that then the way to save the most lives is to spend all of our money on the health problems of young people in Africa and other less-developed nations that are far cheaper than treating someone's grandma who is past reproductive age for cancer in the US.

We can expand that to all of the money we are spending on old video games that we are not using to save the lives of children in Africa.

[Jrecee]

Motives behind our "response" to 9/11 are a mile long, and that's without the conspiracy theories, but the general idea behind our presence in the middle east is to prevent further terrorist attacks, not to avenge the deaths from previous terrorist attacks.

[MrPopo]

If it turned out that establishing universal health care would cause my company to drop that part of the benefits and I'd have to join the line then I'd probably be against it. From a high level if more people have access to health care that means more people will use it and consequently more lines.

All i hear from this is "Me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, etc..."

You seriously just said that you would dislike more people having health care just because you'd have to wait in a bigger line. Reminds me of assholes blowing past you on the freeway going 90 because, obviously, their jobs/lives are more important than EVERYONE elses. No dude. You are no better than ANYONE ELSE on this planet. Sometimes, equality means having to wait in bigger lines. Think about someone else for a change.

Somehow, i get the feeling that all of our problems in the united states could be blamed upon the last 40-50 years of parenting.

Except health care is different from the freeway example. On the highway you all have the ability to go fast or slow. We have laws in place to prevent reckless driving that endangers others, but otherwise it's up to the individual drivers.

Health care is a different beast. You have a limited supply of doctors who provide a service that is in demand. They then charge for said service to compensate them for the time they spent in medical school and for the time they spend working on you. Some people can afford to pay, others cannot. Shouldn't a doctor prioritize those who can pay him over those who cannot? After all, the doctor makes his living through the money he receives for treatments.

That's how capitalism works. People exchange money for goods and services. If you don't have the money you don't get the goods or service. It shouldn't matter what it is someone wants to buy; you either can or can't afford it.

I saw a few examples brought up about retirement. Yes, I will not have my employer-paid health care forever. As a result I am including cost of health care into my retirement planning.

Sometimes, equality means having to wait in bigger lines. Think about someone else for a change.

Pulled this out to respond to it specifically. I have no problem waiting in line when everyone else ahead of me is also a paying customer. I do not understand why something like health care should suddenly make unequal groups (those who can pay and those who cannot) into equal groups. It's still a service, no different from the barber shop.

[Limewater]

Citizens of the United States, pay about three times the amount for health care than other Westernized countries, and it seems most of this extra money goes to pad the pockets of the insurance companies and the doctors that we all love to trust so much.

A lot of that money goes to subsidizing those who can't pay for care in the emergency rooms. A lot of it is also money paid to drug companies to purchase the new drugs they sunk a ton of R&D money into to develop. (Not that drug companies aren't shady-- just look at the crap they tried to pull with Gardisil.) A lot of that money also goes to covering the costs of people who go to the doctor way more than they really need to. This is something that doesn't happen as much in countries with nationalized health care because the barrier to entry at the doctor's office is higher. A lot of that money also goes to elective procedures that people in many other companies don't have the option of receiving. Finally, a whole lot of that money goes to people sinking crazy money to buy themselves a few more months at the end of their life-- again, something they don't do in other countries to the crazy levels we do here.

Insurance companies suck-- no question, but there are a lot of reasons Americans spend so much more than others on healthcare.

[racketboy]

My view is that we need to fix the drug and medical industry before tackling this.
Right now the industry takes advantage of current health insurance by racking up costs.
As is, Universal Health Care would be like putting a band-aid on a bullet wound.

[wilsona26]

people will someday get the super duper universal healthcare they want, then they will complain about having to pay the taxes that go along with it. Just like people who complain about our schools needing money, but then vote down any taxes to build more schools, more teachers etc. I was always taught that if you want better things in life, you gotta pay for it. nothing is ever free. I just hope my children and grandchildren dont hate me and my generation for all the things we are putting on thier shoulders because of the past 20 years.

[Limewater]

people will someday get the super duper universal healthcare some of them want, then they, along with all other people who didn't want it but are still forced to pay for it will complain about having to pay the taxes that go along with it.

FYP.

[dsheinem]

I saw a few examples brought up about retirement. Yes, I will not have my employer-paid health care forever. As a result I am including cost of health care into my retirement planning.

That's all well and good - I am doing the same thing. People should plan carefully. But there's a saying about the best laid plans of mice and men...

What happens if you lose your ability to make a livelihood tomorrow? What happens if your savings can't cut it because you get some super-rare disease when you are old that requires lots of $$ to treat? I'm sure you'll want to rely on Medicare at that point - shouldn't a 40 year old have the same option?

That's how capitalism works. People exchange money for goods and services. If you don't have the money you don't get the goods or service. It shouldn't matter what it is someone wants to buy; you either can or can't afford it. I do not understand why something like health care should suddenly make unequal groups (those who can pay and those who cannot) into equal groups. It's still a service, no different from the barber shop.

That argument sounds closer to Social Darwinism than capitalism, albeit with an economic bent.

Health Care is nothing like a hair cut. It is, to borrow an earlier example, a component of public health and safety (e.g. police, FDA, etc,). The same speeding law that you cited was put into place is meant to protect everyone, not just those that pay for the road. By your logic, those who pay more taxes should be able to drive faster or on separate, better maintained roads.

Sorry, Mr. P, but you are still coming across as selfish. Perhaps capitalism is an amoral system, but does that mean our politics have to follow suit?

[Limewater]

Sorry, Mr. P, but you are still coming across as selfish. Perhaps capitalism is an amoral system, but does that mean our politics have to follow suit?

My morality comes from my religion. Do you want me to inject my morality into my politics? I thought that was a big complaint while Bush was in office.

Also, I don't see how what Mr. Popo describes is Social Darwinism.

[vash23n]

I am 28 and my wife and I cannot afford health insurance. We both work very hard, but still can't afford it. Some jobs make it easier to get health care than others. My last job gave us both health insurance (a good plan) for around $100 a month. My wife's current job would provide us both with crappy insurance for $1100 a month. Why? Because her boss is a cheapskate. He is a dentist and makes good money, but doesn't take care of his employees. So it's neither of our fault that she works for a jackass. This is why healthcare is such a rocky issue. It is not just as simple as someone who works hard can afford it. There are 3rd and 4th parties involved that can manipulate the system and make it harder or easier for the people.

I don't know how, but someone needs to step in and smack some people around in order to straighten things out. My wife and I are not old, but there are certain checkups that we both should be having that we have not had for YEARS! Who knows what is going on in terms of our health. And what could we do about it if something bad did happen? We are not just some homeless couple trying to milk the system because we don't feel like working. And don't say that she should find a new job. She is a dental hygienist and there is not a real market for them these days. She is lucky to be one of the few with a fulltime job. Not to mention it's not very easy finding a job in general these days.

I think I agree with having the option of going to a private practice or using national health care. It will assure that everyone has health care. The choice won't be whether or not to have health insurance, but what quality health insurance to have. At least everyone will have something. This country has done a lot over the last year to take care of those who could arguably already take care of themselves. Many of these people took that money and wiped their ass with it. I will be happy to get something useful (not a stimulus check that was barely enough to cover a couple bills) that could last for a while.