The Wrestling Thread

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Re: The Wrestling Thread

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i kind of feel like WWE is better than AEW at this cross promotional thing. Jordynne Grace was hanging out with NXT women backstage (one of whom seems to have her eyes on that TNA Knockouts title), she wrestled a match against an NXT wrestler, she had a face off with Roxanne Perez, she reunited with Miya Yim (who was once in TNA) and they talked about how crazy this WWE/TNA thing is. Jordynne's ring gear said "NXTNA" on it. Plus, WWE is regularly promoted her in their commercials and talking about her upcoming match at the NXT pay per view. Speaking of which, a WWE champion fighting a TNA champion in a UFC building. Wow, crazy times we're living in. Plus, they are going to be featuring Shayna Bazler in another GCW Bloodsport style match called NXT Underground, which really seems fitting for the venue they are going to be in.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/ ... vs_stevie/

Meanwhile, Willow vs Tam never got talked about on TV. International title matches that PAC and Orange Cassidy had in other promotions were barely promoted by AEW. Mina Shirakawa makes very sporadic appearances on TV even though they are supposed to be building up to her taking Storm's title. C'mon AEW, I know you can do better than this.

Jordynne Grace is even making funny tweets about what's currently going on in WWE

https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/ ... is_doesnt/

On that note, WWE has finally figured out how to use Liv Morgan. She's thoroughly unlikeable so they turned her heel. They are also doing a storyline focusing on the only thing she's ever really had going for her, which is sex appeal. She's basically stalking Dominick Mysterio. I said once that Liv has a lucky horse shoe up her ass. Rhea Ripley got injured, dropping the title to Becky Lynch - whose WWE contract ran out, so low and behold Liv Morgan is now the Raw Women's champion. Both in kayfabe and reality she always seems to luck into these things.

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Last edited by Raging Justice on Wed Jun 05, 2024 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

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WWE is just infinitely better at marketing, promotion, management and PR. I don't understand AEW, Tony's like a billionaire, right? Just hire the best damn people money can buy and form a proper marketing team, PR team, writing team and whatever else they need.

WWE can literally shit out anything and make it look gold, but not just that, get social media buzzing. All I keep seeing on social media is stuff to do sith Liv Morgan's storyline with Dom, and the stuff with TNA. No one even gives a shit about TNA or Jordynne Grace - or they didn't. Now they do and now eyes are on NXT and on TNA. Eyes that could have been and should have been on AEW.

Baby Reindeer is like the hottest thing on Netflix right now and you have people drawing comparisons between it and Liv Morgan. Also, Liv has been doing stuff on social media to go viral, like 'liking' all of Dominic's recent posts and photos. That's smart.

WWE also has all the viral marketing surrounding Uncle Howdy going on. Again, it's quite smart.

But AEW needs to decide what its identity is and then how it can reach a high quality and sustain it and keep things interesting. Maybe they give up some of the more sports entertainment side of things and stick to a more straightforward sports based production. I don't know.

I just know that over the last year or so, the things that have been praised have been things like the Continental Classic last year, the gauntlet match they had last week and stuff like that. Has anyone really praised a single proper sports entertainmenty storyline that AEW has done in the last year? Maybe the MJF and Adam Cole bromance for a while, but that's about it.
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

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Reprise wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2024 8:21 am WWE is just infinitely better at marketing, promotion, management and PR. I don't understand AEW, Tony's like a billionaire, right? Just hire the best damn people money can buy and form a proper marketing team, PR team, writing team and whatever else they need.

WWE can literally shit out anything and make it look gold, but not just that, get social media buzzing. All I keep seeing on social media is stuff to do sith Liv Morgan's storyline with Dom, and the stuff with TNA. No one even gives a shit about TNA or Jordynne Grace - or they didn't. Now they do and now eyes are on NXT and on TNA. Eyes that could have been and should have been on AEW.

Baby Reindeer is like the hottest thing on Netflix right now and you have people drawing comparisons between it and Liv Morgan. Also, Liv has been doing stuff on social media to go viral, like 'liking' all of Dominic's recent posts and photos. That's smart.

WWE also has all the viral marketing surrounding Uncle Howdy going on. Again, it's quite smart.

But AEW needs to decide what its identity is and then how it can reach a high quality and sustain it and keep things interesting. Maybe they give up some of the more sports entertainment side of things and stick to a more straightforward sports based production. I don't know.

I just know that over the last year or so, the things that have been praised have been things like the Continental Classic last year, the gauntlet match they had last week and stuff like that. Has anyone really praised a single proper sports entertainmenty storyline that AEW has done in the last year? Maybe the MJF and Adam Cole bromance for a while, but that's about it.
That's why I hate "Timeless" Toni Storm. She represents a direction I don't want to see more of in AEW. If you want to do silly, do it in a moderate way. That's what Orange Cassidy represents. He's silly, but he's not OVER THE TOP silly. Orange Cassidy good. Toni Storm bad. I find it bizarre that Orange Cassidy haters like "Timeless" Toni Storm, but again chalk that up to the weirdness of pro wrestling fans. I think I heard that Cornette likes the gimmick, and he's a known Cassidy hater.

What I like about Cassidy is that it all makes sense. It's a character. He's a chill, laid back guy. He doesn't like to talk much, in fact he even seems uncomfortable with talking. He's a guy who lets what he does in the ring do the talking. The hands in pocket stuff and the fake kicks, it's just a way to fuck with people and It's Cassidy's Schtick. It's no different than Pentagon's Cero Miedo routine and him throwing the glove out of the ring to Alex Abrehantes. It's no different than MJF doing kangaroo kicks, Okada doing camera zoom out rain maker poses, Bryan pointing to the sky doing yes chants, or Claudio's silly big swing move. These are things used to play to the crowd while also demoralizing (or just pissing off) your opponents. I don't know why some people see Cassidy as some pro wrestling abomination, but enjoy Toni Storm's ridiculous gimmick that results in fourth wall breaking nonsense like the black and white filters. She's not even supernatural. At least with Bray Wyatt or Undertaker weird stuff like that made sense.

WWE lives and breathes social media. Like seriously, they've been obsessed with it for years now. No more than two minutes go by on a show before you hear commentary saying, "We're trending on Twitter (or X as it's called now)". I find it annoying, but as you pointed out, they do use social media in smart ways and AEW could certainly learn from that. Lucha Underground had good internet presence too years ago. Sadly, they mismanaged many other things and that's why they're not around anymore. I think even Stardom uses social media better than AEW does. They use it to push story lines and to flesh out the personalities of their talent. They're always stuff going on online between shows to keep people's interest. So it's not like AEW can't do this sort of thing. I assume WWE's mastery of social media has to be somewhat credited to Vince McMahon. Ironic since I don't believe he's ever used it. It all started under his creative vision for the company.

I think something that you and I have been kind of hitting on in our discussions is branding. WWE has a brand, and it's a very strong, powerful, brand with a lot of history, money, influence, and marketing behind it. AEW doesn't have a brand. They don't even really know what they are beyond the vague description of "the alternative". Well, so was TNA, and so was Lucha Underground. You need to become something more, something beyond "the alternative"

I think "Where the best wrestle" was something that they could build on, but I think they've already dropped that.

I need to watch Baby Reindeer, I've heard mention of that show before
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

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Lol they're reading the thread :lol:

I also think this is potentially an example of how AEW sometimes tries to do what WWE does well and fails. We don't know what it is yet, but it is probably something cringy. Especially as it involves Mercedes.

Mind you, I find most stuff WWE does on social media that people praise cringy too, but they still get praised for it.

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Raging Justice wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2024 1:48 pm I think I heard that Cornette likes the gimmick, and he's a known Cassidy hater.
Sometimes I just think Cornette is just a contrarian and knows what his fanbase wants to hear. Most of these old wrestling influencers (whatever you want to call them) are like that.

I don't even understand how he's the most listened to wrestling podcast. Although I think wrestling podcasts are so niche that it's not the flex he and his fanbase thinks it is.
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

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The Learning Tree turned a corner for me. He's now giving advice to EVERYONE, that includes random staff, the people driving him to the arena, etc. :lol:

He's calling everyone "branches". He feels like a character from some children's TV programming, giving out lessons to all of the children...except he's doing it to adults :lol:

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I know some people will still complain, and some people will say that he got too much TV time tonight, but this is old school, AEW Jericho to me. The guy we had in like the first two years. He's doing comedy, working a gimmick, and he once again seems to be surrounding himself with a faction. Factions mean less of him in the ring since other guys can wrestle for him, which will make some people happy. I think Jericho can still be fun in the ring though. He's done some fun stuff with Shibata and Hook in the ring recently.

I think Jericho needs to work the FTW title into the gimmick more, really play up that "For the World" thing. I know some people don't want to see Jericho with a title in 2024, but what would you prefer? This? or the world title? or the TNT or International titles? The FTW title is a fucking joke anyway. It might as well be WWE's 24/7 title or DDT's Ironman Heavymetalweight Championship. Jericho is TRYING to do something entertaining with it and I'm curious to see where this ultimately goes. We also can't complain that he's dragging down Hook anymore since Hook is now with Joe, which feels like a match made in heaven to me. Jericho was the bridge to get him there. What was Hook really doing with the FTW title anyway? Nothing. That's what. Bill feels perfectly at home with this gimmick and is playing off of Jericho well. He wasn't really doing anything after Ricky Starks disappeared. This is working for him. Bryan Keith is funny going around yelling at everyone, "Are you disrespecting Jericho!?!?!?"

Also, this disingenuous, condescending character Jericho is doing actually kind of has a similar vibe to what the Young Bucks are doing. The way the Bucks will insult someone, then follow it up with, "but hey you're doing great! you're doing great!". I think Jericho will play off of them well whenever they decide to start having them interact. In fact, I'd love to see the Bucks fully get behind Jericho's "For the World" title. Make it feel like some kind of corporate, PC title. Put little rainbows and flowers on the belt. Have the EVPs talk about how that belt represents the family friendly, inclusive environment that is AEW. Matt and Nick can talk about what a great role model the Learning Tree is for all of the kids out there. Have Jericho bring out some kids on his talk show segment and just really ham it up like he's AEW's Mr. Rogers.

Smiling kids - "THANK YOU LEARNING TREE!"

Jericho - "Remember kids, everybody is a winner! This isn't MY title. It's EVERYONE'S title. All of you watching at home. You're all winners! Ha ha ha"

Then we can enjoy seeing Tazz seethe more and more every passing week, then Taz just makes a beeline for the ring one night and just does a suplex on Jericho. Then Bill and Bryan Keith start beating on Tazz. Maybe a week later, Tazz brings someone into AEW to challenge Jericho for that belt. That's a potentially great story right there.

Tazz - "Chris, that's it. I've sat by long enough. I'm tired of this bullshit. I'm tired of you disrespecting my title. You've gone against everything that title stands for. You've made it a joke. You've disrespected me, Sabu, Ricky Starks, you screwed over my kid. This has to stop...and I've found just the guy to do it"

Entrance music plays, someone cool debuts...and immediately is standing in the ring face to face...with Big Bill. Jericho is laughing and smiling behind him.

Jericho is an asset to this company whether people like it or not. People forget that guys like him, Bryan, and apparently Adam Copeland as well, are important behind the scenes. They're locker room leaders. If someone else was doing this gimmick, everyone would love it, but some people are just really anti-Jericho these days.

Looks like Mercedes is back on her original trajectory, back before she was even in AEW. She's having a title vs title match with Stephanie Vaquer, which means she's probably winning the IWGP Strong Women's championship. What does this mean exactly? Giulia is out of the equation now. Will someone from Stardom feud with Monet for that title? Will she start making appearances in NJPW? Oh and looks like Storm vs Shirakawa WILL be for the title. The build for this has been abysmal though. I'm disappointed. Tonight's segment involving them was...bad, just really, really bad. The two ladies were actually fighting each other with their boobs, followed by a bizarre hugging between them and Mariah May.

God, this is fucking cringe. Yet there are people out there acting like it's gold. They're not even building HEAT for this match. Mina and Storm are apparently both faces in this...and so is Mariah. Like, what the fuck even is this?

On a positive note, here's some random stuff from Raw that I actually liked. Most of the show still sucked though

Listen to the pop in this clip at 3:11, those are the moments I love in pro wrestling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6osduVTYdc

Chad Gable as a heel is not something I wanted, but he's making it work. Otis is a loveable face and this might help him really get over, not that the guy was struggling in that department to begin with. That bit at the end with him carrying his friends. That's a goddamn babyface right there! Though an obviously conflicted one. Sami Zayne is actually the least interesting part of all of this.

I LOVE this Iyo in the below clip. Crazy and fucking unhinged. Good shit!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChaUX6eeFy4
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

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An article on WWE's current problems:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/101 ... -right-now

The beginning of the article is the usual BS we see now where they are fellating WWE and exaggerating how great the company is currently doing. One line in particular made me roll my eyes, "Creative is stronger than it has been in decades". Do they actually know how long a decade is? The Summer of Punk was in 2011 as was the awesome Mark Henry heel run. The Kane/Daniel Bryan stuff was somewhere around that time I think or shortly after it, as was AJ Lee's rise to popularity. The Shield was in 2013-2014. They just crapped all over the Ruthless Aggression period, which had some good stuff despite the unfortunate rise of John Cena. What about Evolution? Taker vs Michaels? Bray Wyatt? Chris Jericho? Remember "The List" from him and the work he did with Kevin Owens? The rise of the Four Horsewomen? The amazing 24/7 title shenanigans with R Truth and Drake Maverick? Do they also realize that the Attitude Era was less than three decades ago? Are they also ignoring Black and Gold Era NXT? Idiots. This is what I mean about how overboard everyone goes in praising the current WWE product. Yeah, WWE has had issues for several years but describing creative as "the best it's been in decades" is pretty absurd. I guess we have to keep pretending that nothing good ever happened under Vince McMahon as we continue to revise history now that he's gone. Eventually the article does get to some good stuff though and ironically disproves its own claim regarding "best creative in decades". Journalists are stupid.

Here's some choice excerpts:

1. "The problem lies in WWE's insistence on long title reigns across every championship and the importance of PLEs over television."

"It is fine to have certain champions, especially heels, withhold title opportunities, but this does not work when most titleholders are not even following the 30-day defense rule."

2. "Every WWE tag team division comes off as inconsequential.

While teams such as The Creed Brothers and DIY have serious potential as fresh challengers, they seem to be waiting for stories to kick in that will make them relevant.

WWE women's tag champions Bianca Belair and Jade Cargill have serious credibility but no real threats as challengers.

The revolving door of the women's tag team division needs a solid foundation that still has not formed."

3. "WWE is not the same without Roman Reigns on air.

The central problem is that WWE still hasn't clearly established the next top heel to take Reigns' place.

Raw is holding it down much better with Drew McIntyre and Gunther as the top heels, but the red brand has the opposite problem: There is no top babyface.

Sami Zayn and Jey Uso may hold the highest standing, but both have been relegated to popular midcard roles."

4. "WWE has always struggled to pivot at the correct moments to respond to fan reactions. This is a tough ask for any wrestling promoter, but every era of the company has been riddled with missed opportunities.

WWE wasn't ready to capitalize on the growing popularity of LA Knight, Jey Uso or Chad Gable.

Knight has done almost nothing since fighting Roman Reigns at Crown Jewel in November 2023

Jey has struggled to escape the shadow of The Bloodline story, but WWE had opportunities to make him a champion, either winning the Intercontinental Championship, World Heavyweight Championship or King of the Ring. He just keeps losing.

While Gable has thrived since his heel turn, he might have been even more popular after toppling Gunther as champion.

If WWE doesn't find ways to capitalize on the popularity of key stars, it's popularity will wane."

5. "Lack of Apparent Long-Term Angles. The World Heavyweight Championship scene is a mess of names from Damian Priest and Gunther to Drew McIntyre and CM Punk. It's difficult to find a cohesive angle behind it all. The rest of the champions are working from PLE to PLE as is much of the rest of the roster. The most layered storyline may be Chad Gable's Alpha Academy drama, but that angle might be reaching its conclusion rather than just getting good. Especially in the women's division, WWE needs to start developing angles that can keep talent relevant for the long haul. Liv Morgan may be able to slot in with The Judgment Day, but what is the plan for Bayley, Bianca Belair or Jade Cargill?

It is crucial for young talent on the rise to develop angles. Tiffany Stratton, Carmelo Hayes and Ilja Dragunov had much clearer stories and momentum in NXT and have a limited window left to carry that popularity forward.

The only WWE angles that have legs currently are stable-driven"

6. "One of the single greatest angles the company has run in recent years was The Rock's heel turn and subsequent attacks on Cody Rhodes ahead of WrestleMania 40.

The Final Boss became an unstoppable force who stood out from the crowd because he was not clean cut. He would swear openly. He promised and delivered bloody spectacles.

Rock's run up to The Show of Shows had the internet on fire in fascination over what he would do next.

WWE has not delivered an angle even close to this since.

Cody Rhodes has faced conventional opponents in solid title bouts at premium live events with little fanfare, and The Bloodline's presentation has hinted at wilder moments but delivered mostly familiar television."

I know people will call me crazy, but several of those points can be tied back to the presence of Cody Rhodes in WWE, how they have booked him, and how they have pushed him - to the detriment of other people. It also feels like they've put all of their chips in on his push, while not giving as much attention to the rest of the roster.
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

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All very valid points.
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

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I just started fantasy booking the world title picture for the rest of the year for AEW, but just deleted it all, because you know what? There's too many great names that I want in that picture. There's Ospreay, there's MJF, there's Danielson (the main point of my post was to ask the question what if there's the option of him having a short reign before he semi-retires at Wrestledream?), there's Okada, there's Hangman, Cole and Omega when they return. Hell there's guys like Wardlow and Jack Perry who, maybe aren't ready to actually win, could get another shot at least.

I am not sure what direction I would go in, let alone what AEW currently have planned.
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

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Reprise wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2024 10:27 am I just started fantasy booking the world title picture for the rest of the year for AEW, but just deleted it all, because you know what? There's too many great names that I want in that picture. There's Ospreay, there's MJF, there's Danielson (the main point of my post was to ask the question what if there's the option of him having a short reign before he semi-retires at Wrestledream?), there's Okada, there's Hangman, Cole and Omega when they return. Hell there's guys like Wardlow and Jack Perry who, maybe aren't ready to actually win, could get another shot at least.

I am not sure what direction I would go in, let alone what AEW currently have planned.
Could do an epic, multi-man match with all of those guys. Lucha Underground did something cool once called "Six to Survive", an elimination match with world title implications. Check out this awesome clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrNiGLoMIws

Image

EDIT: The above video shows how fun a world title scene featuring multiple people can be. They literally whittled down the world title contenders from 12 to 6. That's wild.
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

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Raging Justice wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2024 11:20 am Could do an epic, multi-man match with all of those guys. Lucha Underground did something cool once called "Six to Survive", an elimination match with world title implications. Check out this awesome clip:

<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrNiGLoMIws</span>

[img]https://encrypted-tbn0.<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQiuWj1w46L_PPZWrtm7N5CFH0VSLUd9CXHXQ&s</span>[/img]

EDIT: The above video shows how fun a world title scene featuring multiple people can be. They literally whittled down the world title contenders from 12 to 6. That's wild.
Yeah, something like that is awesome.

I don't think AEW does enough multi-man world title matches. I can understand why companies don't like to do them very often, as it kind of concentrates all your biggest stars into just one match and then it can make the rest of the card feel weaker. Plus people prefer one on one heater feuds, but I think they can be interesting.

WWE had some great ones in the year 2000, they had a lot of interconnected feuds, like that between Triple H and Mick Foley and the Rock at the start of the year, but then you also had Big Snow feuding with the Rock too. Then later you had The Rock continuing his feud with Triple H, but then you also had a love triangle angle between Kurt, Stephanie and Triple H. Then you had The Undertaker returning and later Stone Cold returned and you had Triple H, Rikishi, Stone Cold and The Rock all caught up in an angle revolving around Triple H and Rikishi running down Stone Cold the prior year.

AEW had something similar recently with Swerve, Hangman and Samoa Joe which was great.

I wouldn't mind them having another world title triple threat later this year or maybe even a fatal four way or even 5 or 6 man match. Hell, they could do another of those gauntlet battle royal things and have it be for the title.

Maybe Bryan Danielson could win the Owen Hart cup and face Swerve at All In, but then Ospreay manages to manoeuvre his way into getting added to the match.

I just remembered the 6 man hell in a cell match WWE did at Armageddon. Imagine something similar with Swerve, Ospreay, Danielson, MJF, Hangman and Okada. Now there's a title match!
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