The Wrestling Thread

[Raging Justice]

I find it kind of funny that there are people shitting on Jericho's new gimmick who love Timeless Toni Storm. It's fine if you hate The Learning Tree, I did. I'm only starting to come around to it because I think Big Bill and Bryan Keith are making it more interesting (we could be seeing a new Jericho faction). However, Storm's gimmick is ten times more ridiculous and stupid than The Learning Tree. Wrestling fans can be really strange sometimes.

I like that it's giving Big Bill and Bryan Keith something to do, and I think Bill is really doing a good job of leaning into the silliness of the gimmick. He's good with silly stuff. Him and Enzo Amore were a silly duo in NXT. Keith was someone I didn't even care about until last night. Also, Jericho's Learning Tree angle is leading to the Hook/Samoa Joe duo that I wanted. I've said before that I wanted Hook and Joe as a mentor/student duo, and that I wanted to see Jericho in a faction again.

[Reprise]

I can understand why. People already hated Jericho. The mood was already bubbling under the surface, but reached a boiling point once those allegations that weren't really allegations but alluded to the fact that there may be allegations ( ) came out. But even internet rumours aside, people were growing tired of Jericho for a number of reasons.

Now his new gimmick is essentially just leaning in hard doing the things people hate about him. Just those things ironically in a sort of self-mocking style doesn't suddenly make people like it. It's still the same thing people hate about it.

That said, I don't really hate it. In fact, I am kinda intrigued to see where this stuff goes, particularly with Joe and Hook, like you.

Toni, I don't know why that gimmick got over. To be honest, I kinda liked it during the transition period when she was becoming more unhinged, but before she officially became 'Timeless' Toni Storm.

Fans are fickle though. I know people are different and people always have different opinions, but I do think the recent WWE lovefest and AEW hatefest shift in opinion, not to mention the major shifts in opinions on individual wrestlers, is mostly just down to fans being fickle. One day everyone will hate Timeless Toni Storm (unless she finds a way to reinvent herself) and you'll be asking "where were you guys 6/12/24 months ago?"

[Reprise]

"Adam Copeland is considered backstage in AEW to be a locker room leader and was perceived to have been doing "much more" than was expected of him.

The report notes that this is a very different attitude compared to people who have come from WWE to AEW and viewed the company as beneath them."

(Source: Wrestling Observer Newsletter)

I respect Adam a lot because of stories like this. The guy genuinely seems to be happy in AEW and wants to help the wrestlers there and the company. I can see him being much like Bryan Danielson in that respect.

[Raging Justice]

I can understand why. People already hated Jericho. The mood was already bubbling under the surface, but reached a boiling point once those allegations that weren't really allegations but alluded to the fact that there may be allegations ( ) came out. But even internet rumours aside, people were growing tired of Jericho for a number of reasons.

Now his new gimmick is essentially just leaning in hard doing the things people hate about him. Just those things ironically in a sort of self-mocking style doesn't suddenly make people like it. It's still the same thing people hate about it.

That said, I don't really hate it. In fact, I am kinda intrigued to see where this stuff goes, particularly with Joe and Hook, like you.

Toni, I don't know why that gimmick got over. To be honest, I kinda liked it during the transition period when she was becoming more unhinged, but before she officially became 'Timeless' Toni Storm.

Fans are fickle though. I know people are different and people always have different opinions, but I do think the recent WWE lovefest and AEW hatefest shift in opinion, not to mention the major shifts in opinions on individual wrestlers, is mostly just down to fans being fickle. One day everyone will hate Timeless Toni Storm (unless she finds a way to reinvent herself) and you'll be asking "where were you guys 6/12/24 months ago?"

Yeah, that's happened many times in the past. You see people catching on to something and it's like, "Oh NOW you're seeing it" I've experienced this many times, and not just in pro wrestling but other things sometimes too, like the video game industry.

I think I might have liked Toni Storm's gimmick if she had taken it in a disturbing direction instead the silly, dumb one she ultimately decided to go with. I would have enjoyed seeing her mind break down more and more, and seeing her become like a demented Joker style character. To make that work AEW would have needed to have her do really disturbing things, like attacking someone, making them bleed, and then smearing the blood on her face and then posing for the camera while laughing maniacally. "It's time for your close up dear!" then she grabs her opponent's bloody face and tells the camera man to zoom in on it.

I would have fucking loved that shit! I would have loved seeing her attack her former colleagues The Outcasts, leaving them a bloody mess backstage. Over time I would have liked to see her character get more and more demented until we start maybe leaning into creepy Bray Wyatt territory where the constant shifts to black and white would have actually been cool. You could have done all of this while keeping the classic movie star theme, just like how Joker uses the clown theme. I would have loved seeing her be a menace behind the scenes, like just randomly attacking people backstage and then maybe leaving some sort of signature behind like a serial killer. And while she's beating the shit out of someone you could keep switching to black and white, almost like a way to make the violence seem less graphic

If you have ever seen the episode of Batman the Animated Series with Calender Girl. That's the sort of thing that could have worked for her, but taken in a more disturbing direction:









If you wanted to go all the way with this gimmick, you could have had Toni Storm eventually mutilating her own face to the point that she becomes a disturbing looking, masked character.



I don't like Timeless Toni Storm because I've seen this sort of thing done better. You know me, I like a good story, a bit of drama, and just a little bit of shock value, and Toni has given us none of that. It doesn't work for me as a comedy act because I like a little bit of cleverness in my humor, Toni just acts like a buffoon and thinks we're supposed to laugh, but I could have LOVED her character had she taken it in a more serious direction.

[Reprise]

I think I might have liked Toni Storm's gimmick if she had taken it in a disturbing direction instead the silly, dumb one she ultimately decided to go with. I would have enjoyed seeing her mind break down more and more, and seeing her become like a demented Joker style character. To make that work AEW would have needed to have her do really disturbing things, like attacking someone, making them bleed, and then smearing the blood on her face and then posing for the camera while laughing maniacally. "It's time for your close up dear!" then she grabs her opponent's bloody face and tells the camera man to zoom in on it.

I would have fucking loved that shit! I would have loved seeing her attack her former colleagues The Outcasts, leaving them a bloody mess backstage. Over time I would have liked to see her character get more and more demented until we start maybe leaning into creepy Bray Wyatt territory where the constant shifts to black and white would have actually been cool. You could have done all of this while keeping the classic movie star theme, just like how Joker uses the clown theme. I would have loved seeing her be a menace behind the scenes, like just randomly attacking people backstage and then maybe leaving some sort of signature behind like a serial killer. And while she's beating the shit out of someone you could keep switching to black and white, almost like a way to make the violence seem less graphic

Oh same. 100% the same. I don't think wrestling has enough absolutely unhinged demented and dangerous heels right now. I would love to see something like that, perhaps even with more cinematic shots, such as the quintessential trope where the villain approaches someone, they beat them, they're lying on the floor hurt, then they step forward, the camera backs up and then pans and the characters are just out of shot. The viewer then starts seeing blood splattering everywhere and just hear blood curdling screams and the sound of a bat or cane or something repeatedly hitting the person.

Actually that might be a bit too far

I like the idea of her going down an almost Batman Animated Series or Joker path though.

[Raging Justice]

I think I might have liked Toni Storm's gimmick if she had taken it in a disturbing direction instead the silly, dumb one she ultimately decided to go with. I would have enjoyed seeing her mind break down more and more, and seeing her become like a demented Joker style character. To make that work AEW would have needed to have her do really disturbing things, like attacking someone, making them bleed, and then smearing the blood on her face and then posing for the camera while laughing maniacally. "It's time for your close up dear!" then she grabs her opponent's bloody face and tells the camera man to zoom in on it.

I would have fucking loved that shit! I would have loved seeing her attack her former colleagues The Outcasts, leaving them a bloody mess backstage. Over time I would have liked to see her character get more and more demented until we start maybe leaning into creepy Bray Wyatt territory where the constant shifts to black and white would have actually been cool. You could have done all of this while keeping the classic movie star theme, just like how Joker uses the clown theme. I would have loved seeing her be a menace behind the scenes, like just randomly attacking people backstage and then maybe leaving some sort of signature behind like a serial killer. And while she's beating the shit out of someone you could keep switching to black and white, almost like a way to make the violence seem less graphic

Oh same. 100% the same. I don't think wrestling has enough absolutely unhinged demented and dangerous heels right now. I would love to see something like that, perhaps even with more cinematic shots, such as the quintessential trope where the villain approaches someone, they beat them, they're lying on the floor hurt, then they step forward, the camera backs up and then pans and the characters are just out of shot. The viewer then starts seeing blood splattering everywhere and just hear blood curdling screams and the sound of a bat or cane or something repeatedly hitting the person.

Actually that might be a bit too far

I like the idea of her going down an almost Batman Animated Series or Joker path though.

Maybe, but I personally wouldn't mind

That sort of thing would be perfect for Lucha Underground though

See this version of Toni Storm that we're talking about I'd have no problem seeing with the women's championship. She also would be a perfect fit for some hardcore type matches or a cage match. She could have had an amazing feud with Shida, who if you remember was the catalyst for her mental breakdown. I think Shida would have loved to feud with this sort of comic book style villain. She's into video games and stuff like that

On a side note, I was watching TNA last night. Nothing particularly shocking happened other than them showing the footage of what happened on NXT (which is sort of surreal to see), but there was a match featuring Jonathan Gresham. You might remember that was the Ring of Honor champion for a while before Claudio took his title, then he had some sort of beef with Tony Kahn I think and left the company. He always used to come out to his matches with an octopus mask. Well apparently he's taking this idea in a more literal direction. He came out for a match with Sami Callihan, took off his octopus mask, and had another mask underneath it. It reminded me of the type of mask Drago used to have in Lucha Underground:



On commentary, they said that everyone who has wrestled him recently has come down with some kind of mysterious illness and they talked about how he's been slowly moving away from the pure, honorable way he used to wrestle. During the match, he would convulse his body from time to time like some kind of Lovecraftian sea creature or something. He kept trying to bite Sami Callihan. The referee for the match was wearing a mask and gloves like he was afraid of catching an infection (felt like the covid times). Eventually, Gresham started trying to puke up something from his mouth. It looked like when wrestlers like Asuka or House of Black members get ready to spray someone with the mist. Sami Callihan stuck his hand in front of Gresham's mouth to stop him, but then noticed he had a black, inky substance on his hand. Gresham pinned Callihan while he was distracted. Afterward, Sami shoved his hand in front of the ref and shouted, "What is this!?". The ref practically jumped away from Callihan's hand in fear.

This was cool, it felt like something that would have fit perfectly in Lucha Underground, especially since Sami Callihan used to be featured there.

[Reprise]

On a side note, I was watching TNA last night. Nothing particularly shocking happened other than them showing the footage of what happened on NXT (which is sort of surreal to see), but there was a match featuring Jonathan Gresham. You might remember that was the Ring of Honor champion for a while before Claudio took his title, then he had some sort of beef with Tony Kahn I think and left the company. He always used to come out to his matches with an octopus mask. Well apparently he's taking this idea in a more literal direction. He came out for a match with Sami Callihan, took off his octopus mask, and had another mask underneath it. It reminded me of the type of mask Drago used to have in Lucha Underground:



On commentary, they said that everyone who has wrestled him recently has come down with some kind of mysterious illness and they talked about how he's been slowly moving away from the pure, honorable way he used to wrestle. During the match, he would convulse his body from time to time like some kind of Lovecraftian sea creature or something. He kept trying to bite Sami Callihan. The referee for the match was wearing a mask and gloves like he was afraid of catching an infection (felt like the covid times). Eventually, Gresham started trying to puke up something from his mouth. It looked like when wrestlers like Asuka or House of Black members get ready to spray someone with the mist. Sami Callihan stuck his hand in front of Gresham's mouth to stop him, but then noticed he had a black, inky substance on his hand. Gresham pinned Callihan while he was distracted. Afterward, Sami shoved his hand in front of the ref and shouted, "What is this!?". The ref practically jumped away from Callihan's hand in fear.

This was cool, it felt like something that would have fit perfectly in Lucha Underground, especially since Sami Callihan used to be featured there.

TNA is taped, so I think we might see some NXT stars showing up later, perhaps at the PPVs/PLEs that are presumably live (I mean, I assume they are?). It would be crazy if some ex TNA stars like AJ Styles show up.

Yeah, I remember Jonathan Gresham being in ROH. I only recently realised he had gone to TNA. Sounds like an interesting story they are telling with him.

[Reprise]

I just watched Dynamite, yeah that was a really strong episode. I hope they can maintain this momentum. There was a lot of interesting things going on and the main event was so much fun.

[Reprise]

I was tired last night, so didn't write a whole lot, but just to re-emphasise that the Casino Gauntlet thingy was AWESOME!

[Raging Justice]

I was tired last night, so didn't write a whole lot, but just to re-emphasise that the Casino Gauntlet thingy was AWESOME!

Better than some recent Royal Rumbles

Only thing that could have made it better was if they had taken Tanahashi's appearance last Saturday and saved it for this instead.