The DOOM Thread

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Ziggy
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Re: The DOOM Thread

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One thing that is feeling very similar to DOOM 2016 is the linearity of it. You go down a defined path until you reach an arena area, then you go down another defined path until you reach another arena area. Rinse and repeat. There are little nooks where you can find secrets, but nothing substantial. Now, I'm not one to shit on a game for being too linear. In fact, sometimes I very much prefer that. But it depends on how well the game masks it, or how engaging the gameplay is so you don't think about it. In these two recent DOOM games, the linear path seems to be devoid of anything at all. So it just feels like a waste of time until you get to the next per-determined monster arena area.

This is still the divide between FPS back then versus now...

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In DOOM 2016 and Eternal, I feel like the game gives you highs and lows. When you reach a monster arena area, the music cranks up and there's shit flying at you from all directions. Death can come quickly. It can be very intense. Then you know when you killed the last monster because the music dies down. Now you find a door or whatever and you're on the next linear path to the next monster arena. Now this linear path feels super boring because there's no monsters or music. There's some platforming, which can be fun. But it's like the arena area was so intense, then they just pull that carpet out from under you and it feels borderline boring.

In the original DOOM games, I mean, I'm sure we all know how they play. But specifically, in contrast to 2016 and Eternal, you don't really have these highs and lows. Sure, there might be some small areas where there's no monsters. But in the original games, you know that monsters can pop out at any time. Or that there's traps and hidden triggers. So you don't have any highs and lows like you do in 2016 and Eternal. You're always at the high, because you're always kinda on edge not knowing what might happen (assuming you don't know the game forwards and backwards like some of us do). And the combat isn't confined to these specific arena type areas, it's spread out all over a huge non-linear map. You can clear all monsters from a map, or intentionally skip the ones you know you don't have to encounter.

So to sum it up, I guess what I'm saying is this: The original DOOM games, the combat feels more organic. In 2016 and Eternal, it feels more like an arena combat game with hallways connecting one arena to the next.
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MrPopo
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Re: The DOOM Thread

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One thing I need to point out on that meme is that in terms of actual paths you follow, the old games were just as linear. There's only one door that's unlocked, until you go here and hit this switch, then go there and get that key. They just have you keep backtracking through old areas.
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Ziggy
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Re: The DOOM Thread

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I disagree, the old games were not just as linear. Yes, sometimes there was a more linear path until you unlock a door. But often there were multiple paths forward. Sometimes you can choose which area to clear first, sometimes you can choose area A and ignore area B completely, and yes there was backtracking. Multiple paths forward and backtracking is non-linear. Even those segments of levels where you really only have one path forward, it's masked extremely well.

This might be the semantics of what technically constitutes linear level progression. The above meme, if you take the sprawling map and draw the progression path through the level I don't think it's fair to call that linear. At least, not in the spirit of what is meant by linear level progression. But call it what you'd like, the fact is that the meme is still accurate. Classic DOOM had huge sprawling levels and new DOOM is more or less straight paths. Just replace "cutscene" with "monster arena area" and it's an accurate representation of old versus new DOOM (although Eternal does have cutscenes).
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MrPopo
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Re: The DOOM Thread

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If you twist a modern map on itself it'll look like a Doom map. They just didn't have the paths cross over themselves. Similarly, if you remove the backtracking you can make a Doom map look like a modern map. And old Doom maps don't really have alternate paths. Now, if you want to talk about non-linearity, let's talk a game like Deus Ex, where you do have a bunch of options; if you build one way you'll be able to experience these parts of the level, if you build another way it's these other parts.
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Ziggy
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Re: The DOOM Thread

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MrPopo wrote:If you twist a modern map on itself it'll look like a Doom map. They just didn't have the paths cross over themselves. Similarly, if you remove the backtracking you can make a Doom map look like a modern map.


No, there really is more to it than that.

MrPopo wrote:Now, if you want to talk about non-linearity, let's talk a game like Deus Ex, where you do have a bunch of options; if you build one way you'll be able to experience these parts of the level, if you build another way it's these other parts.


Don't get hung up on the word "linear." If that isn't the appropriate word to use to describe the differences, let me put it this way: The level layouts of classic DOOM very much hides any linear level progression there is and the overall flow of the gameplay is much different. New DOOM very much feels like two separate games: A combat arena, then a platform section that is usually devoid of enemies and makes no attempt to hide how much of a straight path it is. Take out the word linear and I still stand by everything that I said. The meme is still extremely accurate to compare these two eras of DOOM.

That's not to say I'm not enjoying DOOM Eternal.
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Re: The DOOM Thread

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I'd argue old Doom also had combat arenas. They just hid the corridors between them better. But I think a lot of that comes from the limitations of their map making software available at the time. You pretty much had to force everything into this compact box, whereas modern games don't have that limitation and can stretch things over this wide area because most of that isn't actually used in the game and the tooling can optimize for those big amounts of unused space in the totality of the canvas.
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Re: The DOOM Thread

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OK, I only just found out about this. Big news for classic DOOM !

John Romero released SIGIL II for the 30th anniversary of the original DOOM.

https://romero.com/sigil

Like the first SIGIL, you can get SIGIL II in three ways. A free megawad, which includes a midi soundtrack. A 6.66 Euro digital version of the megawad which includes a digital soundtrack by Thorr. And various physical editions.
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