Killing GOATs

[StuntDouble]

Mass Effect.

I tried, I really did. But that game put me to sleep every time I started playing it.

[marurun]

Mass Effect does have a lot of weird choices. The gunplay kind of stinks. It’s an action game that’s emerging from KoTOR, essentially. Some of us really like that aspect of it, but I can completely see how this game could drive some folks nuts or bore to tears.

[RobertAugustdeMeijer]

As for GOATs that have aged well?
- Deus Ex
- Super Metroid
- Super Mario 64 (thanks to speedrunning)
- Zelda 3 (thanks to randomizer)
- World of Warcraft Vanilla. When's the next reset, lol!

How are those legit criteria? Zelda 3's official release does not have a randomizer. And the speed running argument can apply to ANY game. Speed runners want to speed run everything. They're obsessed with it.

I see mods as a way of playing with the original game. Why does playing with a game have to be limited to, dunno, what the designer intended or what the game can do out of the box? I mean, if you're allowed to hook it up to a tv, why not hook up the code to a hex editor? Isn't Doom an all-time classic thanks to the level editors?

As for speed running: some are simply more enjoyable or popular than others. I love Maniac Mansion but it's not at all interesting to speedrun, either to do or watch. Mario 64, which I think has aged terribly for the usual play, turned out to be fantastic for speedrunning. It lives on via Twitch and YouTube.

[Raging Justice]

Mass Effect.

I tried, I really did. But that game put me to sleep every time I started playing it.

Mass Effect does have a lot of weird choices. The gunplay kind of stinks. It’s an action game that’s emerging from KoTOR, essentially. Some of us really like that aspect of it, but I can completely see how this game could drive some folks nuts or bore to tears.

I'm a bit of an outlier when it comes to Mass Effect. I think it's the best game in the series. Many view the second one as the best, and believe the original to be the weakest entry overall. Though Mass Effect 3 is viewed as having the worst ending of the three games and completely ruins the trilogy, it still seems generally regarded as a better game overall that the first Mass Effect.

I don't have an issue with the gunplay in the first game. To me, the first one is more rpg than third person shooter. You'll have more success focusing on powers than gunplay. That said, there are hilariously overpowered ammo types you can get in the game if you go the run n gun route. The next two games leaned much more heavily in the shooter direction than rpg.

The story and world building is excellent. I have no idea how anyone could find it boring.

The game also has the best villains of the three games and a great ending that can stand on its own while still leaving some things open for the next game. The first Mass Effect can be enjoyed as a self contained game while ignoring the rest of the trilogy.

Now i will say that Mass Effect 2 has the best final act of the trilogy (and many other video games I have played for that matter). That chapter of the game is an epic masterpiece that feels like playing through the end of a really good sci fi movie. It also REALLY makes your choices throughout the game feel like they mattered. ME 2 also goes a bit deeper with the relationship building between Shepherd and everyone else as well and does play better as a shooter than the first game for people who care about that sort of thing.

[Raging Justice]

As for GOATs that have aged well?
- Deus Ex
- Super Metroid
- Super Mario 64 (thanks to speedrunning)
- Zelda 3 (thanks to randomizer)
- World of Warcraft Vanilla. When's the next reset, lol!

How are those legit criteria? Zelda 3's official release does not have a randomizer. And the speed running argument can apply to ANY game. Speed runners want to speed run everything. They're obsessed with it.

I see mods as a way of playing with the original game. Why does playing with a game have to be limited to, dunno, what the designer intended or what the game can do out of the box? I mean, if you're allowed to hook it up to a tv, why not hook up the code to a hex editor? Isn't Doom an all-time classic thanks to the level editors?

As for speed running: some are simply more enjoyable or popular than others. I love Maniac Mansion but it's not at all interesting to speedrun, either to do or watch. Mario 64, which I think has aged terribly for the usual play, turned out to be fantastic for speedrunning. It lives on via Twitch and YouTube.

When you start talking about mods you are talking about fans messing around with the original work. There is nothing wrong with that, but it is irrelevant to a discussion like this. We are talking about the quality of the games as originally created by the original developers. You can't have someone add stuff to a Mona Lisa and then ask someone what they think about the Mona Lisa. You have changed it. It is no longer the Mona Lisa

[RobertAugustdeMeijer]

When you start talking about mods you are talking about fans messing around with the original work. There is nothing wrong with that, but it is irrelevant to a discussion like this. We are talking about the quality of the games as originally created by the original developers. You can't have someone add stuff to a Mona Lisa and then ask someone what they think about the Mona Lisa. You have changed it. It is no longer the Mona Lisa

Ah, but let's take some real life examples of great works of art that do get used. For example, isn't the Guggenheim all the more impressive for also being used as a concert hall (like Plastikman and Ratatat)? Perhaps not what it was originally created for, but now one of its hallmarks. Or take House of Leaves. You could separate the book from the music album, the Whalestoe Letters, or the message board posts discussing the book, but that would be missing out on the experience. And isn't, for example, Running Up That Hill, even better for its use in Stranger Things? I can't play Mega Man 2 without thinking of, if not feeling, the awesomeness of Bit Brigade shows. How good would Street Fighter be without Evo?

There sure are arguments for evaluating a work of art in a vacuum. But why should we?