World is Falling Apart Thread (Locked forever)

[J T]

Third, if enough people do favor a third party/independent candidate, then the two major parties take notice and may adopt or return to positions held by that individual in the future in a way to mollify or recall the voters who have lodged dissent and bring them back into the fold. A vote here may mean changes down the line, and I'm willing to play the long game. I have to be. The forces at work here are the culmination of political movements from 20, 30, and even 50 years ago. Even with the generally short term focus of American politics, movements build and lead to consequences far down the line.

Good point. I think the Green party's past popularity with Ralph Nader has affected the Democratic party, and on the other side, the Tea Party and Libertarian party have affected the Republican party, as well as the Reform party after Perot's campaign. Actually, I think libertarians have affected the Democrats in some ways too.

[Ack]

Well, I don't know about the rest of you, but I also just read up on what amendments are up for a vote in my state to make sure I know what my choices are. We have four on the ballot in Georgia.

[samsonlonghair]

Likewise, Ack, I placed a phone call to my local registrars office to request a sample ballot. There's an unsettling, "right to work" amendment on the ballot in Virginia that I will surely vote against.

An informed voter is poisonous to tyranny.

[Michi]

What I do find interesting as well, is many of the Bernie supporters, who would trash Hillary on how bad she is/was, would then start throwing support behind her and talk her up as someone to vote for. Now, I get it and understand if you vote Democrat as you generally support that party's ideals, and I get it if someone wanted to vote against Trump. But how can Hillary be so bad in the primary, win the nomination, and then suddenly be so worthy of support?

Last year, some time before Christmas, we had our annual Christmas luncheon (shocking, I know.) Everyone I work with at the office is at least 10+ years older than me, and most of them are Republican. I can't speak for everyone there, but from what I heard, nobody who was talking about the primaries was a Trump supporter. One of the women at the office is heavily involved in the local Republican scene (like, seriously, I can hear her phone conversations and I think I think she talks about politics more than she gets work done) and I distinctly remember her saying that Trump was crazy, she'd never vote for him and there was no way in hell he'd ever win the primary. Wanna guess who she's voting for now?

So yeah. It's not just the Bernie supporters who suddenly decided the 'evil' candidate was suddenly worthy of their vote.

None of this is a knock against you, btw. It's just something I've been thinking about for a while and after your comment I felt like pointing it out.

[jp1]

I also thought I had seen you claim to be a fiscal conservative, which I associated (wrongly?) with being a Republican.

If all poodles are dogs, are all dogs poodles?

Being fiscally or socially conservative does not automatically mean a person is or identifies with the Republican Party(just as being fiscally or socially liberal does not automatically make one a Democrat). There are fiscally or socially conservative Democrats, Libertarians, Constitutionalists, etc., and then there are a wealth of independents out there with no party affiliation for various reasons who may be fiscally conservative, socially conservative, both, or neither. While the membership of any given party may be painted with broad strokes, it's not always necessarily the truth of the individual. Political parties are made up of numerous people with a variety of outlooks and ideals, some of which are in total disagreement with the party line.

That said, it's easy to understand how you came to that conclusion what with how Republicans and Democrats are generally depicted in the media. No worries, mate.

I'm afraid the system doesn't leave much choice unless you want to stand on principles and throw your vote away.

As for this, I don't see it as throwing one's vote away by voting for a third party or independent candidate for several reasons:

First, I am standing by my principles in doing so. At the end of the day, I will vote for what I want to see in the White House and in government, not pick the better of two options I don't like. If anything, voting for the lesser of two evils instead of voting your actual opinion could be considered "throwing your vote away," because you didn't really vote what you believe. Instead you caved to whatever was forced upon you.

Second, by voting for a third party/independent candidate, I am also registering my dislike for where I see the party that generally represents my views. I don't want a particular individual to represent my country or the party I favor, so I dissent and ensure that that particular candidate does not receive my vote. Yes, this is a gamble; one lone vote in a nation of hundreds of millions is small change. But that is still one vote that does not help a particularly disliked candidate win, and there may be hundreds, thousands, or even millions of other people who feel the same. Besides, it's the only voice I have at the moment, so I'll use it the only way I can.

Third, if enough people do favor a third party/independent candidate, then the two major parties take notice and may adopt or return to positions held by that individual in the future in a way to mollify or recall the voters who have lodged dissent and bring them back into the fold. A vote here may mean changes down the line, and I'm willing to play the long game. I have to be. The forces at work here are the culmination of political movements from 20, 30, and even 50 years ago. Even with the generally short term focus of American politics, movements build and lead to consequences far down the line.

Fair enough. Honestly though it isn't media coverage that had me making assumptions. I generally run across ultra conservative Republicans or mildly to wildly liberal Democrats in my circle of acquaintances, friends, and family. While I'm aware that a middle ground exists as well as entirely different sets of beliefs, I do tend to box folks in with red or blue. It's not a great way of looking at things, so I appreciate being called on it.

I admire the tenacity to vote for what you believe in, however I am in a swing state and I don't feel I'm afforded the luxury. I have to try and offset the Trump bumper sticker I see a hundred times a day.

[Jmustang1968]

What I do find interesting as well, is many of the Bernie supporters, who would trash Hillary on how bad she is/was, would then start throwing support behind her and talk her up as someone to vote for. Now, I get it and understand if you vote Democrat as you generally support that party's ideals, and I get it if someone wanted to vote against Trump. But how can Hillary be so bad in the primary, win the nomination, and then suddenly be so worthy of support?

Last year, some time before Christmas, we had our annual Christmas luncheon (shocking, I know.) Everyone I work with at the office is at least 10+ years older than me, and most of them are Republican. I can't speak for everyone there, but from what I heard, nobody who was talking about the primaries was a Trump supporter. One of the women at the office is heavily involved in the local Republican scene (like, seriously, I can hear her phone conversations and I think I think she talks about politics more than she gets work done) and I distinctly remember her saying that Trump was crazy, she'd never vote for him and there was no way in hell he'd ever win the primary. Wanna guess who she's voting for now?

So yeah. It's not just the Bernie supporters who suddenly decided the 'evil' candidate was suddenly worthy of their vote.

None of this is a knock against you, btw. It's just something I've been thinking about for a while and after your comment I felt like pointing it out.

That maybe true, I am sure some are voting for Trump since he won primary, I know some who will be to vote against Hillary as well. But I havent heard many who are voting for Trump are doing so because the like him, more of a lesser of 2 evils type thing. Purely anecdotal of course.

[Sarge]

I'm actually fascinated by how few Trump bumper stickers I see here, and I'm in Mississippi! I know he's going to win here, but it's really strange.

Well, actually, not really. College town, and I sure as heck am not putting one on mine, even if I do vote for him. I figure that's a good way to make my vehicle a target. Heck, our Mississippi State University vehicle got keyed over in the Delta, probably by some Ole Miss fan.

[TSTR]

generally putting political campaign bumper stickers on your car is wack imo

[Ack]

It's election day, folks.

Go vote. I did.

[Tanooki]

I'm actually fascinated by how few Trump bumper stickers I see here, and I'm in Mississippi! I know he's going to win here, but it's really strange.

Well, actually, not really. College town, and I sure as heck am not putting one on mine, even if I do vote for him. I figure that's a good way to make my vehicle a target. Heck, our Mississippi State University vehicle got keyed over in the Delta, probably by some Ole Miss fan.

I think Trump probably still is likely to lose, but I'm not feeling like it will be the expected blow out by some. With all the horrible comments made after Trump said some dumb crap or didn't say stuff to shove off the racist assholes, coupled with Hillary and her insipid 'bag of deplorables' bullshit there's some wiggle room. Stuff like that made people who like or lean Trump afraid to broadcast that outside of the most verbally and visually political types. Call them closeted voters if you will, but I think especially in flip-flop type states and those that lean more and more blue you'll find some decent numbers for him rack up more than expected. Maybe not enough to edge out a win by like 1/2 a percent, but I think there will be some real polling variances this year. I think you'll have fearful Trump voters who don't want to be pegged as racists, bigots, haters, poor white trash, rednecks, women haters, etc for backing the guy.