World is Falling Apart Thread (Locked forever)

[Sarge]

Definitely goes to show how ideology shapes our view of candidates. I view Trump as bad, and Clinton as worse. How much worse? I don't know. I've pretty much said it before, I think Trump is a complete and total crapshoot. How much with him is real? How much is contrived as a sort of "art of the deal" scenario, staking out extreme positions in order to reach a compromise closer to what is desired? I really don't know. I just know that I'm in the wilderness this time around, since there isn't a principled conservative on the ballot, unless you count Evan McMullin. And he doesn't have a snowball's chance in... well, you know.

[Forlorn Drifter]

Theoretically McMullin could make it, but the chances are highly slim. If it does come to congress picking who we get, I feel like we would get Jeb, but I may be completely wrong on that.

[J T]

What I do find interesting as well, is many of the Bernie supporters, who would trash Hillary on how bad she is/was, would then start throwing support behind her and talk her up as someone to vote for. Now, I get it and understand if you vote Democrat as you generally support that party's ideals, and I get it if someone wanted to vote against Trump. But how can Hillary be so bad in the primary, win the nomination, and then suddenly be so worthy of support?

While I didn't trash her, I was a Bernie delegate, and I did argue for Bernie over Hillary and presented a number of criticisms of Clinton. That said, I did also provide arguments for Hillary at the caucus because my wife could not attend and I knew her positions. I was happy to represent both sides there. I can tell you I haven't forgotten my concerns. I simply don't feel like trotting them all out right now because I have so many more concerns about Trump, and to lay out complaints about Hillary feels like a distraction. Since we basically have just a two party system, I feel I have to pick between one or the other (I know others here, like Ack, feel differently and would rather vote 3rd party).

No matter who gets elected president, I'm going to have to be active for the issues I most care about after the election. I do, however, feel confident that Hillary is the more likely candidate to listen to and incorporate changes for the causes I care most about. I also find her existing policy plans to be far less alarming than Trump's. I'm also concerned that republicans are predicted to take the senate, which means I'm likely facing an uphill battle no matter what.

[Jmustang1968]

While I will not vote for Trump (probably not voting at all, but if I did, I still wouldn't vote Trump) I think a lot of the "if he gets elected, it will do this" talk is a good bit of hyperbole. I don't think he would set back our country x amount of years. I think in some ways, he represents roughly what 30-40% if not more of what the country already is or thinks. It would just be a representation of that group. He is getting a lot of support from the middle to lower middle class (mostly white) who have felt left out by Washington.

The president is often credited with much more power than he really wields. Just as I imagined if Bernie had won, a lot of his ideas and plans would've been impotent, mostly due to an uncooperative House & Senate, I think Trump will get the same treatment. He is a lot of bluster. The biggest legitimate fear I think he would represent would be to embarrass us and make us look bad internationally. I suppose it could also help legitimize, in their minds at least, some of his more radical supporters points of view.

What I do find interesting as well, is many of the Bernie supporters, who would trash Hillary on how bad she is/was, would then start throwing support behind her and talk her up as someone to vote for. Now, I get it and understand if you vote Democrat as you generally support that party's ideals, and I get it if someone wanted to vote against Trump. But how can Hillary be so bad in the primary, win the nomination, and then suddenly be so worthy of support?

I wish you were wrong about that part, sadly it's clear that you aren't. I wonder what's the point of the Hillary/Bernie tangent though? Do you feel attacked as a conservative or a Republican? Hillary is a worse candidate than Bernie IMO, but an infinitely better candidate than Trump. It's really as simple as that. She is far from ideal, but she isn't dangerous in the way Trump is. Sure, he won't have the power some people think he might due to the Senate. I don't think that makes his disgusting ideology any less dangerous for our country.

The platform he would be allowed to use to showcase what 30-40% of America shamefully represents is plenty powerful enough to do serious damage in my opinion.

I don't think he is necessarily running a campaign based off racism and hate. Sure, some of his followers definitely seem to have that mentality, but I think a lot of his support comes from the "Fuck Washington and politicians" following. Hillary has a lot of corporate and other longtime Washington ties, and many feel she, and that aspect of the Democratic party, serve the "liberal elites and minorities". Many people also love the anti-politically correctness of his campaign. This, despite how he has been known to lie or if not lie, confuse himself to speaking falsehoods, makes many see him as more honest, and a guy who will "say what he really thinks". Hillary does often come across as dishonest and disingenuous and always trying to say the right thing, rather or not it is what she actually believes. In fact many of her past actions, speeches, campaigns are often not in agreement with things she says she believes now.

I am not sure where the I feel attacked comes from? I do not identify as a republican, probably closest to libertarian. But many of the things Trump supporters say about Hillary, are similar to what Bernie supporters were once saying about her, but who are now singing her praises. I think my comments were more of a commentary over the entire political process and the fickleness of the voters, and not directly tied to the first part of my post. Like I said, I can appreciate or at least understand one supporting their party or voting against Trump, but how can she go from being a cheating, dishonest, in the corporate world's pocket etc., to this awesome presidential candidate?

Despite some of the controversial things Trump has said, my problems with him as a candidate is that he really doesn't have a platform or a plan. He just says things, and then points out things that are bad, and says he will fix them. But in no way does he ever really say how he will do that. It really reminds me of some sort of grade school student council vote where a kid will say we will get more recess, longer lunches, homework is bad, and so are tests!

[jp1]

I am not sure where the I feel attacked comes from? I do not identify as a republican, probably closest to libertarian. But many of the things Trump supporters say about Hillary, are similar to what Bernie supporters were once saying about her, but who are now singing her praises. I think my comments were more of a commentary over the entire political process and the fickleness of the voters, and not directly tied to the first part of my post. Like I said, I can appreciate or at least understand one supporting their party or voting against Trump, but how can she go from being a cheating, dishonest, in the corporate world's pocket etc., to this awesome presidential candidate?

I just didn't understand the context of your observation, it felt out of place. The question wasn't loaded at all, I was just curious. I often wonder if some of the Republicans on the board feel attacked because of the problems that many of us have with Trump.

I also thought I had seen you claim to be a fiscal conservative, which I associated (wrongly?) with being a Republican.

But, sure I see what you're getting at. The voters can be just as fickle as the candidates. I'm afraid the system doesn't leave much choice unless you want to stand on principles and throw your vote away.

[MrPopo]

I think most Sanders fans who are sticking with the Democratic ticket are taking the position that whatever faults they might find with her, they think Trump is worse. But I've seen others who are either not voting or are getting behind the notion that they feel Hillary is terrible and going Trump.

What if Presidential candidates were selected via lottery a year before Election Day? Say, pick 20-30 people from all registered voters and give them a year to try and get elected.

[Stark]

Next year Running Man contest.

[Ack]

I also thought I had seen you claim to be a fiscal conservative, which I associated (wrongly?) with being a Republican.

If all poodles are dogs, are all dogs poodles?

Being fiscally or socially conservative does not automatically mean a person is or identifies with the Republican Party(just as being fiscally or socially liberal does not automatically make one a Democrat). There are fiscally or socially conservative Democrats, Libertarians, Constitutionalists, etc., and then there are a wealth of independents out there with no party affiliation for various reasons who may be fiscally conservative, socially conservative, both, or neither. While the membership of any given party may be painted with broad strokes, it's not always necessarily the truth of the individual. Political parties are made up of numerous people with a variety of outlooks and ideals, some of which are in total disagreement with the party line.

That said, it's easy to understand how you came to that conclusion what with how Republicans and Democrats are generally depicted in the media. No worries, mate.

I'm afraid the system doesn't leave much choice unless you want to stand on principles and throw your vote away.

As for this, I don't see it as throwing one's vote away by voting for a third party or independent candidate for several reasons:

First, I am standing by my principles in doing so. At the end of the day, I will vote for what I want to see in the White House and in government, not pick the better of two options I don't like. If anything, voting for the lesser of two evils instead of voting your actual opinion could be considered "throwing your vote away," because you didn't really vote what you believe. Instead you caved to whatever was forced upon you.

Second, by voting for a third party/independent candidate, I am also registering my dislike for where I see the party that generally represents my views. I don't want a particular individual to represent my country or the party I favor, so I dissent and ensure that that particular candidate does not receive my vote. Yes, this is a gamble; one lone vote in a nation of hundreds of millions is small change. But that is still one vote that does not help a particularly disliked candidate win, and there may be hundreds, thousands, or even millions of other people who feel the same. Besides, it's the only voice I have at the moment, so I'll use it the only way I can.

Third, if enough people do favor a third party/independent candidate, then the two major parties take notice and may adopt or return to positions held by that individual in the future in a way to mollify or recall the voters who have lodged dissent and bring them back into the fold. A vote here may mean changes down the line, and I'm willing to play the long game. I have to be. The forces at work here are the culmination of political movements from 20, 30, and even 50 years ago. Even with the generally short term focus of American politics, movements build and lead to consequences far down the line.

[prfsnl_gmr]

Hillary . . . serve the "liberal elites . . .".

Yes...YES...YES!!! ELECT MY SERVANT TO A POSITION OF IMMENSE RESPONSIBILITY AND KNEEL BEFORE THE AWESOME POWER OF THE LIBERAL ELITE!!!

Sorry...I just love the idea of belonging to an "elite" class, and I do let myself get a little carried away sometime.

[Jmustang1968]

Hillary . . . serve the "liberal elites . . .".

Yes...YES...YES!!! ELECT MY SERVANT TO A POSITION OF IMMENSE RESPONSIBILITY AND KNEEL BEFORE THE AWESOME POWER OF THE LIBERAL ELITE!!!

Sorry...I just love the idea of belonging to an "elite" class, and I do let myself get a little carried away sometime.

Not my term, but more of a differentiation of the lower income blue collar liberals and the higher income and educated liberals.