World is Falling Apart Thread (Locked forever)

[dsheinem]

I'm sure the Republican Party does not "necessarily need" to oppose gay rights, abortion but you do not defend it the way you do with Islam.

I wouldn't ever say that ALL Republicans oppose these things or even assume that if someone says that they are Republican that they must. Many don't, and there are enough that don't that I try to take everyone on their own terms instead of painting them with the ideological brush of their party platform.

I really think you are doing women a massive, brutal disservice by treating Islam with kid's gloves. You give it a benefit of the doubt it doesn't deserve.

I am not "treating Islam with kid's gloves." I think there is a lot of misogyny in Islam and it is detestable and to be fought against (there is a lot of misogyny in the Bible, too, including in the New Testament). My point is simply that there are enough Muslims in the world that practice a more progressive view of their faith (as is also the case with Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, etc.) that we should stop grouping all Muslims together when we have these discussions or, more dangerously, making policies.

[BoringSupreez]

I am not "treating Islam with kid's gloves." I think there is a lot of misogyny in Islam and it is detestable and to be fought against (there is a lot of misogyny in the Bible, too, including in the New Testament). My point is simply that there are enough Muslims in the world that practice a more progressive view of their faith (as is also the case with Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, etc.) that we should stop grouping all Muslims together when we have these discussions or, more dangerously, making policies.

That's quite debatable.

We do now. From the German news site Express, translated through Google:

These nationalities of the suspects

Among the 31 known suspects of the remaining offenses were nine Algerian, Moroccan eight, five Iranian, four Syrian, an Iraqi, a Serbian, an American and two German nationals. 18 of them were asylum seekers.

18 out of the 31 are refugees. That's over 50%.

This was found on one of the suspects by the police: A list of German phrases the rapists were using (as a guide), including such phrases as "big boobs", "I want to fuck you", and "I kill you".

german phrases.jpg

This article is largely full of hearsay from sources that don't want to be named, and it is coming from a tabloid news source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... in_Germany) that has its own commercial reasons for wanting to stir up controversy and sensationalism.

Fine, here's the same story with the exact same facts from CNN then. 31 suspects arrested, 18 are refugees. The source is the German foreign ministry.

Just quit while you're behind.

[dsheinem]

Just quit while you're behind.

Fuck you. I'm not "behind" on anything. The most trusted source in the world on this story wouldn't invalidate my arguments.

Your ignorance seems totalizing.

[ZeroAX]

Dave you didn't answer my question: have you discussed with many Muslim women about how they are treated under Islam?

No I won't blanket call all Muslims are sexist. But I will call Islam misogynistic. Just like I won't call all republicans homophobic, but I will call the Republican party itself homophobic.

Why is it ok to judge an ideology or party but not a religion in your book? Just because people feel so strongly about religion?

We live in the 21st century. People should accept criticism and debate about their religion, either they are Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist or atheist.

I find leftists who are (rightly so) willing to be judgemental of the majority but (wrongly so) willing to forgive many things of a minority, to be part of the problem, since they are supposed to be the ones standing up for universal human rights. But instead I detect this wrong sighted tribalism. That for you defending different people just because they're a minority is more important than standing up for universal values.

And stop comparing the treatment of Islam with the treatment of black people (which is your obvious reference). Islam is just an ideology. Criticizing it so its followers can improve is the healthy thing to do.


EDIT:

I just saw your "fuck you" post. I'm really disappointed

[prfsnl_gmr]

And Islam, specifically, is the worst offender right now.

I think that this statement is problematic because it blames a religion for crimes committed by individuals. In the United States, at least, we do not attribute crimes to classes or groups, and we certainly do not practice any sort of collective punishment. Rather, we are a nation of individuals, and each person is individually responsible for his or her own actions, including his or her own crimes. I think that this is a fair and rational approach, and I am saddened whenever people use acts committed by a few individuals to slander others with some ostensible similarlity (in this case religion and/or national origin) or attribute a criminal propensity to them.

I also think that some of us here are overlooking the fact that Germany has admitted between 800,000 and 1 million refugees in 2015 alone. Accordingly, even if eighteen of refugees committed some horrendous crimes, I do not think that crimes committed by, at most, 0.00018%-0.00225% of the refugee population reveals that the decision to admit refugees was misguided. Moreover, I think that arguments asserting that these criminal acts justify excluding refugees entirely are based on prejudice and fear-mongering.

Only ErikTwice has pointed to any sort of study showing that immigrant poulations in Europe have a higher rate of criminality, and even he admitted that the study likely did not control for socio-economic status, childhood trauma, or any other factor that, when included in the study, might lessen the degree to which immigrant status correlates with criminality. Moreover, even if there was a statistically significant correlation between immigrant status and criminality after controlling for these factors, I very much doubt it would be high enought to justify a substantial policy shift.

To be clear, there are perfectly good reasons for European countries to refuse admittance to refugees. (As ErikTwice put it, we should not expect European economies with already high unemployment rates to admit large numbers of workers and, in doing so, further depress wages there.) Unsubstantiated assumptions and prejudices regarding the refugees' criminality, culture, or religion are not valid bases, however, and again, I think it is wrong to attribute the criminal acts of a few individuals to a large class of people with some ostensible similarity. (Jails in North America are full of purportedly Christian men, many of which purportedly adhere to by the distinctly Christian principle, "Judge not, lest ye be judged." I would not want anyone to attribute criminal tendencies to me, however, merely because I am a Christian male.)

[jp1]

Dave, just hate all Muslims with blind fervor predicated on prejudice. Conform! You can not have an opinion.

Apparently.

Certainly not one that is based on treating people as individuals.

[Ack]

Dave you didn't answer my question: have you discussed with many Muslim women about how they are treated under Islam?

To counter this, I also dated a Muslim woman for a time. She did not cover her hair, she said what she thought no matter what, she was more than willing to engage in acts more conservative folks would frown upon(of which I won't go into detail, but which were definitely a lot of fun), and she did not cow herself to any man. Despite this, she was still a devout Muslim.

Personal experience can serve as both a lens to enlighten as well as to obscure. You dated a woman on one end of the spectrum; I dated a woman on the other end. Neither of our interpretations are entirely accurate or correct, as they are only singular examples. Even if you talked to 10 or 100 people from any singular group, you are not getting the whole experience nor the nuances of each individual situation.

[prfsnl_gmr]

That's quite debatable.

No, it really isn't. You are missing a forest on account of the fact that you refuse to see anything other than a few trees.

31 suspects arrested, 18 are refugees.

So...13 of them (42%) were German citizens? These numbers really aren't showing that refugees - who, according to you, had to be taught German phrases to commit the crimes - have much higher rate of criminality. Moreover - and if the refugees really had to be taught German phrases to commit these crimes - I very much doubt that they are the ones who organized the atacks.

Just quit while you're behind.

No. Please stop. I did not want to say it in my previous post, but everything you write here comes across as an attempt to justify your own bigotry. (I live in the South. My forebears were racists. I know what it looks like when people do this.) You cherry-pick facts to match your worldview, and you ignore those that do not mesh with it. (It is called cognitive dissonance, and I often think it is the most powerful force on the planet.)

Finally, I have several close friends who are Muslim or are from majority-Muslim countries. They are, without exception, good, honest, law-abiding people. (Otherwise, they would not be my friends.) Nonetheless, I have seen them discriminated against and hurt by people with prejudices similar to those which you are displaying here. (Before being rejected for a position, one of my friends was asked during a job interview whether he knew Osama Bin Laden.) It is very hurtful to me to see good people treated this way and lumped together with criminals and terrorists merely because the criminals and terrorists purport to practice the same religion.

Accordingly, I hope that you will approach this discussion with an open mind. (You can't really "win" it.) And, I hope that you will learn something from it. I also hope that, someday, you will have the opportunity to know some fine Muslim men and women as I have known them, and that they will relive you of your prejudices.

[BoringSupreez]

And Islam, specifically, is the worst offender right now.

I think that this statement is problematic because it blames a religion for crimes committed by individuals. In the United States, at least, we do not attribute crimes to classes or groups, and we certainly do not practice any sort of collective punishment. Rather, we are a nation of individuals, and each person is individually responsible for his or her own actions, including his or her own crimes. I think that this is a fair and rational approach, and I am saddened whenever people use acts committed by a few individuals to slander others with some ostensible similarlity (in this case religion and/or national origin) or attribute a criminal propensity to them.

And I am saying that the group (Muslims) is offending frequently and grievously enough that that privilege of being judged as individuals should be revoked. Islam is an ideology just like Nazism, to the same extent that it is a religion, and should be treated the same way.

I also think that some of us here are overlooking the fact that Germany has admitted between 800,000 and 1 million refugees in 2015 alone. Accordingly, even if eighteen of refugees committed some horrendous crimes, I do not think that crimes committed by, at most, 0.00018%-0.00225% of the refugee population reveals that the decision to admit refugees was misguided. Moreover, I think that arguments asserting that these criminal acts justify excluding refugees entirely are based on prejudice and fear-mongering.

Surely these rapes are not the only ones committed by the refugee population, especially given the reluctance of the German media to report on them. And "0.00018%-0.00225%" is still too much when exactly 0.000000% of them have any inherent right to be in Europe in the first place.

Only ErikTwice has pointed to any sort of study showing that immigrant poulations in Europe have a higher rate of criminality, and even he admitted that the study likely did not control for socio-economic status, childhood trauma, or any other factor that, when included in the study, might lessen the degree to which immigrant status correlates with criminality. Moreover, even if there was a statistically significant correlation between immigrant status and criminality after controlling for these factors, I very much doubt it would be high enought to justify a substantial policy shift.

Do you really expect a study to show how many people originating from a backwater Islamic country in the midst of a civil war to include all those factors? We can only work with what we get. You seem very eager to give these people the shadow of the doubt.

To be clear, there are perfectly good reasons for European countries to refuse admittance to refugees. (As ErikTwice put it, we should not expect European economies with already high unemployment rates to admit large numbers of workers and, in doing so, further depress wages there.) Unsubstantiated assumptions and prejudices regarding the refugees' criminality, culture, or religion are not valid bases, however, and again, I think it is wrong to attribute the criminal acts of a few individuals to a large class of people with some ostensible similarity. (Jails in North America are full of purportedly Christian men, many of which purportedly adhere to by the distinctly Christian principle, "Judge not, lest ye be judged." I would not want anyone to attribute criminal tendencies to me, however, merely because I am a Christian male.)

No one in this thread is defending Christians, yet you guys keep bringing them up like it's 2002...

Refugees (and all other foreigners) should be subjected to higher levels of scrutiny than citizens, and are entitled to nothing. So "unsubstantiated assumptions and prejudices regarding the refugees' criminality, culture, or religion" are absolutely valid bases for rejecting immigration. They have no inherent right to enter Western nations in the first place, and if there's even a small reason to doubt they will behave themselves once they enter, it's better just to keep them out.

Besides, none of these refugees got to Germany directly from Syria. They passed through multiple peaceful nations before reaching the country that oh-so-conveniently has one of the strongest economies, most liberal governments, and fattest welfare programs in Europe.

[prfsnl_gmr]

The serve:

...everything you write here comes across as an attempt to justify your own bigotry.

...

And I am saying that the group (Muslims) is offending frequently and grievously enough that that privilege of being judged as individuals should be revoked.

Game.

And "0.00018%-0.00225%" is still too much when exactly 0.000000% of them have any inherent right to be in Europe in the first place.

Set.

So "unsubstantiated assumptions and prejudices regarding the refugees' criminality, culture, or religion" are absolutely valid bases for rejecting immigration.

Match.



.....

Certainly not one that is based on treating people as individuals.

Thank you, jp1. I am glad that someone else understands this concept.

You seem very eager to give these people the shadow of the doubt.

PRO-TIP: If you learn to stop yourself from making generalizations about "these people" or "those people," you will be better able to assess your own prejudices.

No one in this thread is defending Christians, yet you guys keep bringing them up like it's 2002.

I hope that my self-identification as a Christian and my compassionate arguments against unjustified bigotry would be defense enough. I guess I was wrong.