Genre of the Month (FEB 2024 TR) - Simply Simulated

[marurun]

I don’t go hard for sim games but I respect what they do. And I love how many have been ported to consoles. Between Sim City to SNES and SimEarth and Populous to PC Engine, there’s definitely some console-side options for those who don’t want to indulge in PC gaming. I’d argue stuff like Harvest Moon (and as such Stardew Valley) and Animal Crossing can fall loosely into this category.

I also love when sim elements are incorporated into other games, though that is a bit more rare. Stuff like Actraiser and Sol Seraph are the most obvious examples, but some games have town areas you improve by collecting resources and thus “leveling them up.” I think this component owes equally to sims as it does to RPGs.

[Limewater]

I feel like it's a little bit odd that city building/management games are classified as "sim" games. I realize that may go back to "SimCity," but I am not sure too many local governments really work much like that.

I love Transport Tycoon, but the game lets me build roads and rails pretty much wherever I want. I mean, Nethack is at least as much as "wandering through a fantasy dungeon" simulator as Transport Tycoon is a transportation business simulator.

I don't know any city government structure that gives the mayor near-universal zoning and planning power and a near-eternal term limit the way SimCity does.

But again, I really do love Transport Tycoon.

Also, Sim Sim!

[marurun]

I feel like it's a little bit odd that city building/management games are classified as "sim" games. I realize that may go back to "SimCity," but I am not sure too many local governments really work much like that.

Real governments are also boring as hell. That's part of why sim games go for idealized or cut-down models. That said, sim games typically set up a bunch of mathematical systems and let you play in the sandbox in a way that's arguably quite different from other games, except perhaps in the case of the 4x games where actiony combat sometimes plays a part. The simulation isn't just that what you're doing is simulated but that it uses, typically, some kind of complex mathematical modeling for varied systems and system interactions. And you're not just simulating a main character doing stuff.

[RobertAugustdeMeijer]

Banished was a good time!
One day I'll be ready for Dwarf Fortress, one day...

[Limewater]

Real governments are also boring as hell. That's part of why sim games go for idealized or cut-down models. That said, sim games typically set up a bunch of mathematical systems and let you play in the sandbox in a way that's arguably quite different from other games, except perhaps in the case of the 4x games where actiony combat sometimes plays a part. The simulation isn't just that what you're doing is simulated but that it uses, typically, some kind of complex mathematical modeling for varied systems and system interactions. And you're not just simulating a main character doing stuff.

This is a good explanation. I can buy it. Thanks!

[Ziggy]

I finally got around to (forced myself to) install the CPU upgrade and other PC parts I purchased for my main desktop during Black Friday / holiday sales. I mainly had Cities: Skylines II in mind. Now that I finally meet or exceed the hardware requirements, I can purchase the game. But I just went to the Steam page and noticed the reviews are still heavily mixed. I kinda wanted to get this game ASAP, even if it had some bugs that needed to be worked out. But for $50, I don't know, now I'm thinking about waiting.

There's still plenty of other city builder type games that I have never played. I've had Frostpunk installed for a while, but still haven't fired it up. I've noticed that it takes me a LOT of motivation to try a new city builder. There's a decent time investment with them. First to learn the UI and how all of the tools work, then to learn the mechanics of the game at least well enough to start having fun. So usually there's significant time before you can REALLY start having fun. There's a learning period before you get to the fun part. And that's mainly what keeps me from trying new sim games.

[Ziggy]

So I ended up purchasing Cities: Skylines II.

One thing that's immediately nice is the loading time. I have so many mods installed for the first Cities: Skylines that it takes a long time to load. So having no mods with II, it takes seconds to load instead of minutes. I know that's not exactly a fair pro/con argument to makes between the games.

After actually loading Skylines II, my first impression is how awesome the UI is. It is mostly the same as the first game, which I love since I don't have to learn anything new. The tweaks that are there don't seem negative in any way.

The graphics are nice. Now I understand that one of the major complains with this game is the performance, and having to turn down a lot of the settings. Even with the settings turned down, the graphics are still nicer than the first game. But more importantly, at least to me, is that the models all seem to be a massive improvement over the first game. The first game, a lot of the vanilla models looked kind of crappy. The models in Skylines II look more realistic and detailed.

But apparently that's where the good stuff ends. I haven't looked deep into the complaints that people have for this game, but it seems the biggest is the simulation itself. And although I haven't read a whole lot about what is apparently wrong, just from playing the game for about 7 hours now I can see that there IS something wrong. The first thing that I noticed is that the RCI meter is weird. It just about rapidly changes from 0 or 100. And after a while you get the sense that there really isn't a deep system of demand. And then after the city starts to grow, you get the feeling that the simulation is either broken or fake. Not only does the RCI meter seem almost fake, but so does the demand for all city services. It just doesn't seem like anything has any real impact. You build things, and they grow without consequences. There aren't even any traffic issues, despite having a dense city with no public transportation. I've heard a few people make this comment, and now I get it, that Skylines II is more of a city painter or model builder and less of an actual simulation.

I was kind of stoked that they semi included the Industries DLC from the first game in the vanilla game. That is, you don't just get the typical polluting yellow industrial zones. You can zone specialized industries like farms and mining operations. But that's about it, you zone them and they appear. The Industries DLC from the first game was so much more, each unique industry had many moving parts that made them function. And the raw materials from several unique industries could be used in factories, or you can import/export them. In Skylines II, there is an import/export on some materials, but it seems to be automatic.

Speaking of import/export... There's a game mechanic in Skylines II that allows you to import or export utilities like water and electric. I think that's an awesome addition to the game. But again, it just seems to be automatic and nothing you have any real control over. For example, in the first game you could build a power plant with way higher capacity then you actually need. That would bankrupt your city in no time. But you could adjust the budget, at least to a certain extent, so that power plant would be under (or even over) utilized. But in Skylines II, you can just build a much larger power plant than you actually need and the excess electricity will just be automatically exported for profit. So there's no real consequence to you. Much like everything else in the game. It seems like it would be impossible to make a city fail.

I've read that they will not use Steam Workshop for mods for Skylines II, which is really lame in my opinion.

It is a shame that the simulation is either broken or fake. But I have faith in the devs that they will fix it with updates.

[Ack]

That is too bad about Cities: Skylines 2, but at least everyone's teeth are perfectly rendered.

I know we have been mainly talking about city builders in this thread, but I recently wrapped up House Flipper, a first person simulation based around cleaning, renovating, and selling real estate, and I was wondering how much experience other folks have with the vast array of simulations that now exist. From trucks, trains, and airplanes to hair dressing, running a video game dev studio, or simply being a thief in Thief Simulator (though Payday 2 was more fun...), there are so many different types of simulation games out there, and I love how easily I can zone out and just enjoy the experience I have with them.

Do you folks have other weird simulations you enjoy, like Power Washing Simulator or Crime Scene Cleaner?

[Ziggy]

[Ziggy]

Before this thread gets lost to time, I just wanted to updates my thoughts on Cities: Skylines II. I've put 40 hours into the game, and I now have a city with around 60k population. So whatever negative things I can say about the game, and whatever improvements it needs, it's not a horrible game by any means. A lot of the simulation aspects are lacking, and that's the worst part about the game in my opinion. But as far as building goes, it's a very fun game.

One thing that's a massive improvement is zoning farm land, as well as other industry areas of certain types. In the first Skylines, you could only do square farm lands so things ended up looking unnatural. But in Skylines II, you plop a building and then draw the borders. So you can really contour it to the land or any curved road et cetera. You can get really natural looking farm land borders this way. That's a huge improvement over the first game.

Everyone and their mother has already said this, but the road tools are fantastic. Even the basic tool set just feels better and easier to use compared to the first game. I'm actually still learning the different things you can do with the controls, but I've had a much better time with Skylines II road tools compared to the vanilla road tools of the first game.

As for the simulation things that suck, yeah, I've already touched base a little there. It's a shame that there seems to be less insight and control over certain sim aspects, which is a bummer. But after 40 hours of playing, there's two things that stick out to me as being the most annoying or most frustrating.

Traffic is very strange. It almost seems like there's not enough traffic through most of the city. But then a few key intersections get really bad, as you would expect. But you don't have the path finding tool from the first game. Knowing WHY a particular intersection is packed goes a long way to fixing it. With the path finding tool of the first game, you could see where the traffic is going to/from. And knowing that helps you make decision of what might fix the problem. But Skylines II doesn't have that tool, so really anything you do is guess work. You have to just trial and error solutions until you find one that works. The game gives you no insight to go from, as far as I know.

Schools are broken. Particularly elementary schools. With a population around 60k, only a few high schools are needed (I think I have only two) but several elementary schools are needed. There are no different capacity schools to place. Skylines II has this really neat upgrade mechanic. So you can place a school, and then upgrade it's capacity with extension wings. The problem though is even with the upgraded capacity, you still need many elementary schools. I have 4 grouped together, all upgraded capacity, with a fifth a few blocks away and a sixth not too far from that and it STILL wasn't enough! But yet I have only one high school in that same area.

Speaking of the schools, that reminds me of something else I'd like to see improved. There needs to be more models. You end up getting the same few buildings over and over again. This is more annoying with plopables like schools. There's ONE of each school time. I really like the modular/expandable nature of the buildings, but there still needs to be more models. With schools, we need at least different models for rural and city locations. Maybe they're thinking mods will take care of that, so why bother?

Another thing that gets super repetitive is the radio. I'm sure they're going to have DLC stations like the first game. But it's not even the music that gets too repetitive. It's the intermissions. You get the same few news reports over and over, sometimes two of the same report in a row! The "I've lost my keys" bit is funny, but not after hearing it for the 100th time. And also, some of the reports seemingly make no sense. Like I'll hear "expect rolling blackouts" or there's a problem with a water supply and citizens should cut back, but when I check my city stats for power and water everything looks fine.

Anyway, I just wanted to update my thoughts a little now that I've played the game for a bit. It definitely has some things that need to be worked out. But even with those flaws, it's really not a horrible game.