What was the last movie you've seen?

[Ack]

Also, Dredd came out after The Raid. The two do feature plots similar enough there was speculation that Dredd was ripping off The Raid, but the production timelines are close enough that it's doubtful anyone on Dredd's production was even aware of The Raid. Why you might prefer Dredd over The Raid may simply come down to having seen Dredd first, despite it being the "newer" film.

[marurun]

Hot take: Actions films tend to suck because they try to take themselves seriously by incorporating a plot.

I'm going to agree with both of you. Action films that take their story and plot too seriously often suck because the screenplay and acting can't pull it off. That said, some action films that know they can't pull it off end up being so nonsensical as to not be very fun to watch since things seem to be stitched together loosely that it's more like a carnival show than a film. Whether you take your story seriously or not, an action film has a certain flow it has to achieve, and any good flow has highs and lows. The highs get your adrenaline pumping and the lows give you a moment to breathe and prep for the next high. If two action films have approximately equally well-crafted action sequences but one has a good narrative structure and one does not, the former is mostly likely going to be the better film, because that narrative structure furthers the flow of action and helps build some pathos around the characters involved. Having emotional stakes really does enhance action sequences. The most highly regarded action films in American cinema do tend to have good plots and dialogue, and good narrative structure and story arcs.

For American and Western audiences foreign action films can prove a little frustrating at times because we don't always view stories the same way as other cultures do. As an example, I really enjoy Japan, Japanese culture, and Japanese media, but as I've gotten older I've become more and more frustrated with Japanese storytelling, because it doesn't follow all the same rules as the western media I'm most familiar with. I find the story flow and elements to be stilted at times, but the problem isn't Japanese storytelling: the problem is me. There's just a cultural mismatch in expectations.

[Raging Justice]

I think a good story enhances the action. It gives the fights meaning, a reason to care about the outcome. A reason to root for a certain character to win. It creates an emotional investment in the audience, and that is a key element of good storytelling. I say this also as a pro wrestling fan. Many of the greatest matches of all time had an interesting build up and an interesting story. It makes the audience much more interested in the match and the outcome. I have seen many a match with little to no build up or story, and you can tell by the crowd reactions that they just don't care about anything happening in the match. Even UFC seems to have tried incorporating some story into their matches. Colby Covington seems to be playing a character rather than just being himself.

One of the reasons Cobra Kai is such a good show is that when it comes time for the All Valley Tournament you are thoroughly invested in each fight because you followed the stories of all these characters. You understand the real reason they are fighting, which usually is more than just wanting to win a trophy. Often times it's really about settling a personal score or just overcoming their own personal demons

When you watch a lot of anime you see how strongly they incorporate storytelling into fights. It's not just about watching people do a bunch of cool looking action, a lot of times in anime the whole point of the fight is to create some kind of character development. The protagonist actually learns something during the course of the fight

Now, I'm not saying you have to get complicated with this stuff. An action movie just needs to give me a reason to dislike the bad guys and that's good enough. Or a reason to really like whoever the hero is fighting for, like a kidnapped friend or girlfriend or whatever. Fighting just for the sake of fighting isn't very interesting to me. I like when there is either a personal reason for the hero to fight, or some kind of stakes like stopping the terrorist who wants to blow up half the town. I watched The Killer recently from John Woo. It has awesome shoot outs, but take away all of the story elements that movie had and the shoot outs, fancy and stylish though they were, would not have held my interest. Even the John Wick movies, which is like a ridiculous buffet of action, still has story elements to anchor it all

I haven't seen enough movies with Sammo or Yuen, so that increased my enjoyment of the movie, and Lola Forner just lights up the screen.

If you have not yet read "I Am Jackie Chan: My Life in Action" you need to. It is a great read and you will understand the meaning and relationships of many of those cast in his movies, especially Sammo. "I Am Jackie Chan: My Life in Action" is in my top ten list of books because, frankly it was the first biography I was not forced to read, and it caught me off guard with the content. I highly recommend anyone to check it out.

Sounds like a good read. I'll check it out. Thanks!

[marurun]

I'll second the recommendation of "I Am Jackie Chan: My Life in Action". Obviously, as it's an autobiography take it with a grain of salt. That said, I also found it to be a fascinating read. I learned a lot about Hong Kong cinema and some of the personalities in it that I didn't know.

[PretentiousHipster]

I mean, my other problem with that is that in most actions films the outcome is always the same regardless. I just find it weird that throwing in a death scene in the beginning is enough to make people love it.

There may be a bias involved though. I am much more interested in style as I find that even more complicated to make (colourful action scenes for example). The thing is, plot, and especially the morality behind it, are purely tangible, and easy to make an analysis and connect to, so I totally understand why people focus on that. Stuff with amazing plots have me hooked too. They just completely fail in that department and I am shocked that so little effort is required for people to like something, or like you said, to "care". Wrestling seems more exciting anyways as the outcome is more of a gamble than in most action films.

Only time I loved a legit action film that used tropes was the film Universal Soldier: Day of Reckoning, but that was only because it was a deconstruction of actions films and their tropes, emphasizing the brutality of them by turning it into a horror film. Their action scenes kind of felt like what should be the standard in that genre too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU3c4pSMH2g

[Ack]

PH, do you consider films like The Wild Bunch or The Dirty Dozen to be action films? Or are you thinking more along the lines of the Commando/First Blood: Part II/Bloodsport vein?

[PretentiousHipster]

PH, do you consider films like The Wild Bunch or The Dirty Dozen to be action films? Or are you thinking more along the lines of the Commando/First Blood: Part II/Bloodsport vein?

Yea, I would consider those action, but they don't warrant the same complaints. I guess I should have mentioned the movement of action films from the 80s and 90s that I have beef with with JCVD/Stallone/Seagal/Etc

I do have to give Hong Kong films another chance, but I was turned off by how formal and theatrical they are. I found mainland Chinese films to be vastly better, but they are completely different films.

[RCBH928]

What you guys mean by actions movies taking themselves seriously? Action movies are supposed to be serious ?!

Also, Dredd came out after The Raid. The two do feature plots similar enough there was speculation that Dredd was ripping off The Raid, but the production timelines are close enough that it's doubtful anyone on Dredd's production was even aware of The Raid. Why you might prefer Dredd over The Raid may simply come down to having seen Dredd first, despite it being the "newer" film.

I assumed the first one from 1995 or in the comics had a similar idea, there might be other movies with similar idea. Wasn't one of the Die Hard movies similar to that?
Either way, Hollywood has a wierd thing where two movies released within same timeframe with similar ideas like Armageddon/Deep Impact, A bugs life/ Antz ,
The Prestige | The Illusionist.... this time as between Indonesian and American film though. Maybe the script was leaked...

Hot take: Actions films tend to suck because they try to take themselves seriously by incorporating a plot. I don't wanna start anything with you RCBH928, but I just remember you saying that dialogue felt like filler for you, and that is exactly how dialogue is in action films for me. I don't really understand why people would need a motivation or a relatable character for someone that just blows stuff up because a) usually that "motivation" is just not doing any character development at all, and doing a very cheap and half-assed attempt of doing one by throwing in a simple stake, or making it a revenge tale so you feel bad for them, and b) that implies that you watch films for their morality, and I find it weird because the actions they do tend to be morally questionable. I don't care about morals for films, and hate it when people only use that as an analysis, but people plot-focused focus on that, and they usually never question why a moral character would do immoral things which make make a cool analysis.

Because of those reasons, and the MOST character development that happens in them later on is throwing in a love interest, that once again, also just a simple attempt to increase the stakes, the dialogue scenes are a total buzzkill. They kill the pacing, and it doesn't even make a nice contrast between the action-heavy scenes.

Films like The Raid are better because they know what they excel. Screw the story, it's gonna suck anyways. Just throw in a bunch of cool action scenes with some tension sprinkled in there.

Yes I do no like a movie with a 30 min dialogue between two people sitting on a table, none the less I am also not into movies with 30min of two people punching each other. It had more "interest' back in the 80s when they depended on stunts not CGI when you just wanted to see Bruce Lee or Van Dam beat someone to death.

An action movie has to have an interesting story to go along with it like Die Hard, Indiana Jones, Jurrasic Park. Some movies can do a dialogue only and keep things interesting but they are very rare i recall 12 Angry Men.

[prfsnl_gmr]

Counterpoint: Action films are great. The dumber, the better.

Taken is a classic, not due to Liam Nelson’s awesome speech, but due to scenes like this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Tz-vA5omI2U

[RCBH928]

Only time I loved a legit action film that used tropes was the film Universal Soldier: Day of Reckoning, but that was only because it was a deconstruction of actions films and their tropes, emphasizing the brutality of them by turning it into a horror film. Their action scenes kind of felt like what should be the standard in that genre too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU3c4pSMH2g

Do you mean they intentionally meant to turn it into a parody of action films or it was so bad people actually considered it a joke/parody?