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Flake
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Re: Racketboy Top 10 SHMUP List - 2016 Edition

by Flake Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:58 am

mjmjr25 wrote:Colin - Geometry Wars is sort of in that Asteroids / Stardust category of shooter without like constant scrolling, long stages, sometimes no bosses. It's a shooter...but not what most would call a "shmup". The fear in letting those in to the conversation is if you allow Stardust...then you allow Robotron...then you allow Cannon Spike...then you allow Metal Slug...slippery slope and all, so really trying to focus slowling on scrolling vert / hori shooters.


I don't think this distinction is rational. If Galaga is a shmup...well there is no scrolling. And certainly other shmups allow multiple weapon types in several directions or enemies to enter the screen from all four sides.

Actually this distinction makes no sense at all.
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Re: Racketboy Top 10 SHMUP List - 2016 Edition

by noiseredux Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:08 am

Flake wrote:I don't think this distinction is rational. If Galaga is a shmup...well there is no scrolling. And certainly other shmups allow multiple weapon types in several directions or enemies to enter the screen from all four sides.

Actually this distinction makes no sense at all.


if you added scrolling stars to the background of Galaga, it would make more sense to you. You're right that Galaga (and Space Invaders) are fixed shooters...

Fixed shooters (such as Space Invaders) consist of levels that each fit within a single screen. The protagonist's movement is fixed to a single axis of motion, and enemies attack in a single direction (such as descending from the top of the screen).[13] These games are sometimes also called "gallery shooters".


Scrolling shooters, or what we know was shmups grew out of this so it feels more rational to accept them. If Mike prefers that Galaga or Space Invaders get removed from these lists that's fine.

But Geometry Wars is a Multidirectional Shooter:

Multidirectional shooters feature 360 degree movement where the protagonist may rotate and move in any direction.[21] Multidirectional shooters with one joystick for movement and one joystick for firing in any direction independent of movement are called "twin-stick shooters."


These are more like Smash TV than anything we'd consider a shmup.
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Re: Racketboy Top 10 SHMUP List - 2016 Edition

by Flake Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:22 am

I get that the distinction is widely accepted but it's also incredibly arbitrary so I'm personally going to choose to refute it. The only thing that makes Geometry Wars functionally different from R-Type, Shikigami, or any enemy swarm style shmup is that you can shoot in multiple directions without requiring a specific power up like a core or weapon upgrade.

It has weapon upgrades akin to Strikers, ship assist power ups like gradius, enemy swarms like R-Type, screen affect abilities like Shikigami, score chains like Ikaruga, and 'obstacles' like Xevious.

...but it has one thing in common with Robotron so it's excluded entirely from the genre? Okay. Again, I get that it's a widely accepted convention but it's also pretty silly.
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Racketboy Top 10 SHMUP List - 2016 Edition

by Kidpanda Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:08 pm

10 - Thunder Force III
9 - R-Type
8 - Raiden Fighters 2
7 - Ibara
6 - Progear
5 - Ketsui
4 - DDP: DFK
3 - DDP : DOJ
2 - Gradius
1 - DDP


I pretty much like any shootie, have tons of them. But this is prolly my top 10.
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Re: Racketboy Top 10 SHMUP List - 2016 Edition

by mjmjr25 Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:27 pm

Flake wrote:The only thing that makes Geometry Wars functionally different from R-Type, Shikigami, or any enemy swarm style shmup is that you can shoot in multiple directions without requiring a specific power up like a core or weapon upgrade.

That is not the only difference.

Does Geometry Wars scroll you or can stages last for a wide range of times?

Do you have to clear all enemies before reaching the next stage?

Is there a singular Boss battle that clearly defines the end of a stage?

A "shmup" has an accepted format: ship selection, stage, start, scrolling begin, typically a mid-boss at 40~ second mark, end boss at 80~ second mark, end of stage, start of new stage, do this 6-8 times. Yes, there are some accepted caveats - generally for 1 of 2 reasons: (1) Deviates from the plan in one respect: Truxton has many more stages; Chaos Field is straight to Boss Fights, OR (2) is in the "inspiritational" shmup category - one of the games that created the current genre; like Galaga.

I agree this is silly - but, if this a top 10 SHMUP list, there has to be a criteria. Otherwise, it will simply become a top 10 GAMES WITH BULLETS list.

The reality is Geometry Wars has far more in common with Baldr Force / Gunspike than it does Shikigami no Shiro II. Those are both mult-directional shooters with your character rotating 360 on a confined plane and clearing out a stage. So if we allow that type to be included, then Gunspike is in my top 10. If Gunspike is in my top 10, then we're going to have a hard time keeping out Metal Slug. You can see why there has to be some type of "cut-off".

I'm all for a top 10 Rail Shooter, Multi-Directional Shooter, Run 'n Gun, or Lightgun list too - but they need to be separated out into the appropriate category.
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Re: Racketboy Top 10 SHMUP List - 2016 Edition

by dsheinem Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:28 pm

I'd argue fixed shooters like Galaga should be excluded too, as would games like Fantasy Zone or Space Harrier...
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Re: Racketboy Top 10 SHMUP List - 2016 Edition

by noiseredux Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:29 pm

dsheinem wrote:I'd argue fixed shooters like Galaga should be excluded too,


should we vote on it?
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dsheinem
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Re: Racketboy Top 10 SHMUP List - 2016 Edition

by dsheinem Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:36 pm

noiseredux wrote:
dsheinem wrote:I'd argue fixed shooters like Galaga should be excluded too,


should we vote on it?


We could, but they typically aren't included in any list of shmups by most outlets/communities that are familiar with the nuances of the term. I have defined "shmup" this way for folks in stuff I've written previously:

Initially, many companies made Space Invaders clones that were based on the core mechanics of the game. They typically featured a static background against which rows of alien-shaped targets would move horizontally and down, increasing their firepower and speed as the levels cleared and the player advanced. Within a couple of years, however, the popularity of games like Galaxian (Namco, 1979) and Galaga (Namco, 1981), Defender (Williams, 1981) and Scramble (Konami, 1981) would advance the genre considerably by introducing a wider variety of enemy types and patterns, a fuller range of player movement, a progression of stages, and a scrolling background. These elements came together to define a specific genre of shooting videogames that has since become known as the “shoot-em-up” or “shmup”.

A shmup is generally defined as a continuously scrolling, target-based shooting game in which the player has full control over the orientation of their character/ship, the rate of their shots, and their movement across the screen’s X/Y axis.


We can vote to extend the definition, but I think it makes our list less conversant with those from other places across the web that use the term in its traditional sense.
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Re: Racketboy Top 10 SHMUP List - 2016 Edition

by noiseredux Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:45 pm

honestly I don't care if we include fixed shooters. But I think we should just have Mike say what he thinks is best as he started the thread. I can easily substitute something in my list to make up for Galaga if need be.

But I do think we should vote on whether or not we should be allowing shmups with autofire or not...
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Re: Racketboy Top 10 SHMUP List - 2016 Edition

by dsheinem Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:48 pm

noiseredux wrote:I think we should just have Mike say what he thinks is best as he started the thread.


Yupper!

But I do think we should vote on whether or not we should be allowing shmups with autofire or not...


Can we vote on whether that vote would even be appropriate?
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