Save-States; the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

[bryan_65]

I sure am not popular tonight and don't want to reply to all the posts.

If practicing using save states is cheating then a baseball player having batting practice is cheating, they should have to learn how to bat in real games only.

If they freeze time right when the pitch is at the plate to see it better then yes that is cheating!!! As for the runners, as I was a runner, I did run the FULL amount or more. When I played Baseball and Basketball I did all the SAME drills EVERYDAY IN ORDER.

There was no ''I can dibble and run already so I don't need to practice that''.

And as far as enjoying games I like to play things the way they were meant to be played.

You can study guides for all the Street Fighter stuff and all the other stuff too and if you are practicing alone chances are you start from the beginning.

Blah, Blah , Blah.

[dunpeal2064]

^ If a baseball player could freeeze a pitch DURING PRACTICE, they absolutely would to practice, and I guarentee it would be allowed.

You are telling me that, when you practice for basketball, you always have to be fouled on to take a free-throw? Hell no, you stand at that line and practice. You do as many lay-ups as possible.

If you enjoy playing things from the beginning, cool. Don't tell me I don't enjoy them based on the rules you apply to yourself. I like being good at the games I play. I actually want to kill Doom in Ketsui. I want to 2-ALL DOJ. I want the highest Western score in Mushihimesama Futari. Without efficient practice, these things would not be achieveable for me.

As for your Street Fighter comment... what? I'd be starting from the beginning? Of what, a real match? I wouldn't be doing any real matches, I would be sitting in practice mode. Its not a scrolling game, there is no beginning, except for the beginning of a match. If I played SF, I would study other people's play and train in practice mode, just like I do in shmups.

Let me ask you Bryan, is Stage Select in a shmup cheating? If I have ever had any experience to a game prior to a competition involving it, should I be excluded from the competition? Should anyone who has ever save stated in a game be barred from competing with that game forever?

What if I built a program to simulate a game, and practiced with that? Is that cheating?

I'm genuinely curious, as I still can't find anything concrete here, aside some vague analogies. How, exactly, is using save states cheating? When we both sit down and plop a credit in, what do I have other than a larger knowledge of the game against you? Where is there a clear unfair advantage, other than me just being better at the game?

[AppleQueso]

Yeah I frankly can't grasp how it's even possible to "cheat" when practicing.

And yeah the idea that someone who doesn't play games exactly like you do doesn't actually enjoy the game is pretty insulting.

[Ivo]

1. If they freeze time right when the pitch is at the plate to see it better then yes that is cheating!!! As for the runners, as I was a runner, I did run the FULL amount or more. When I played Baseball and Basketball I did all the SAME drills EVERYDAY IN ORDER.

2. There was no ''I can dibble and run already so I don't need to practice that''.

(...)

3. And as far as enjoying games I like to play things the way they were meant to be played.

1. What about these machines (used in Tennis and presumably also Baseball) that shoot the balls at you so you can practice more in less time?
Also...
You ran MORE than the full amount during training? That is not racing the way the race was meant to be ran! You will improve your endurance faster than others! Cheater!
You did DRILLS? You didn't just play full basketball games while training (with 2 teams and all)? That is not playing basketball the way the game was meant to be played! You will improve specific skills faster than others! Cheater!

I hope the above sort of clarifies a bit more the kind of thing you are doing with regard to save states while practicing.

2. But there was of course "I can already dribble and run already, so I'll focus on shooting hoops from the free-shot position" (or shooting 3-pointers, or shooting under pressure).

3. That is fine and I think you will notice no one is chastising you for playing games the way you want to play them (although I should also add that it is pretty arrogant to self-nominate as the judge of how games were "meant to be played" - I would say not even the developers of the game have 100% right to judge that kind of thing). But what you like to do and what others like to do is not of much consequence to the discussion, when you are accusing others of cheating when they are simply training in the most efficient way available.

The issue is practicing, and there are ways that are much more efficient of doing that. Just like you had drills in basketball and weren't just playing actual games with 2 full teams during practice (which wouldn't make sense, when you can practice by yourself, have a ball just for you enabling you to take many more shots in the same amount of time). Note that it is also very important to practice actual games, but doing so exclusively is really going to stunt your improvement.

[mjmjr25]

And yeah the idea that someone who doesn't play games exactly like you do doesn't actually enjoy the game is pretty insulting.

If someone feels insulted by Bryan's comment they need a lot more help than any of us can offer.

I actually enjoy how when this board sees an argument gain a majority opinion, that majority starts speaking like their opinion is gospel truth.

I agree with Bryan's comment mostly. If your mother bakes a 7 layer cheesecake with a pistachio crust and chocolate frosting - and you only eat the frosting because you find the cheesecake bland and the crust hard, do you love 7-layer cheesecake? You might tell people you do, but in my opinion, you don't, you love frosting. I hope this doesn't insult frosting lovers.

I know there are a lot of people posting in this thread who don't post in the STGT threads, so let me elaborate. Often we have games that people haven't played and have to get good in a hurry, so they use a save state. That isn't the issue - that is a preference. So long as a save state isn't used in a submitted run, no harm / no foul. What frustrates me is when I play, I play through, and I find many games boring when there is no room to improve score on the first stages, they are long, and they aren't difficult. I find that boring. Then another person comes in to say the find the game quite enjoyable - they also comment that they use save states and have been practicing this spot and that boss. Well, sure, you find it enjoyable, you're only eating the frosting.

Those are both opinions and not an attack on any of my shmup brothers. To reiterate, this thread was solely to ensure everyone, particularly those new to STGT, that save states can't be used in submitted runs. Everyone knows hash / dunp / doc and Exed can ball.

[dunpeal2064]

The analogies here are getting ridiculous.

I agree with Bryan's comment mostly. If your mother bakes a 7 layer cheesecake with a pistachio crust and chocolate frosting - and you only eat the frosting because you find the cheesecake bland and the crust hard, do you love 7-layer cheesecake? You might tell people you do, but in my opinion, you don't, you love frosting. I hope this doesn't insult frosting lovers.

Here is the thing:

I play a shit ton of Futari. I need to optimize my Stage 5 lantern routes. So, I don't want to play Stage 1-4 to do this. I absolutely LOVE every stage of the game, but I don't need practice on every stage.

Yes, if you use savestates to NEVER play a part of a game, you obviously don't love the game... but no one is talking about doing that!

So, tell me Mike, how I don't love Futari

I actually enjoy how when this board sees an argument gain a majority opinion, that majority starts speaking like their opinion is gospel truth.

Save states are not cheating. That is a fact. I will speak like the gospel truth it is. If someone wants to prove me wrong, or answer any of the several questions I have asked reguarding this predicament, instead of making ridiculous analogies, then please feel free. As it stands, no one has done this.

I think I have been pretty tame considering someone basically came in here and called me a cheater

[Luke]

"Practicing" a video game doesn't sound like any fun.

I guess every time you play a game you are technically practicing, but the shmup genre is so pure that practicing seems to defeat the purpose of their difficulty. They're meant to lead to twist and turns. Practicing sucks the fun out of them, for me at least.

[dunpeal2064]

"Practicing" a video game doesn't sound like any fun.

I guess every time you play a game you are technically practicing, but the shmup genre is so pure that practicing seems to defeat the purpose of their difficulty. They're meant to lead to twist and turns. Practicing sucks the fun out of them, for me at least.

Its fun to me, but I'm sure everyone has fun doing different things. I like the challenge of overcoming something that seems nearly impossible to me.

The shmup genre is far from pure when you get into Cave's complex scoring. If you've ever tried to full-chain a stage in Dodonpachi, you'd know that "leading twists and turns" is a far cry from where the challenge lies in this game.

Of course, I am not the one trying to tell other people how to play shmups here

[mjmjr25]

Pump the brakes. No one called anyone a cheater that I recall, at least I didn't. I suggest people read the OP again. This was a clarification thread. If someone used a save-state (or lower difficulty) in a submitted run - they are a cheater. That's it.

Using save states to practice is a preference. Is it "cheating", not in my opinion. I prefer to run a game through its entirety each time however and I think it feels more natural. If I was entering a million dollar winner take all contest and I had 3 days before the contest on a game i'd never played - absolutely i'd use save-state practicing and would see no issue with it. My issue, (repeating myself) is when after a week or after 3 days of a game someone says the game is good and in the same breath says they've been save-state practicing a certain part. If I only played the stage 4 boss of Eco, as example, i'd say the game was pretty good. However as a whole, I found it a snooze-fest.

My analogy was intentionally over the top; to stay in line with the other analogies in this thread. I'm waiting for the PED / Save State analogy. Who's got it?

[dunpeal2064]

This got to 4 pages fast and I have some Captain in me now (pretty buzzed) and don't want to read it all, but I don't even think you should use save states to practice. It is still cheating. If you can't make it to that stage to learn it then just keep playing.

I really don't participate in the score threads, but I think that if you are using save states to practice then maybe you really don't enjoy games enough to PLAY THEM.

This is where the cheating came from, and where the "Don't tell me I don't enjoy my games" came from.

Bryan decided to respond, but not to my posts, or to Ivo's, even though the both had what was, imo, some solid topics to touch on.

I'm not upset by any of this, its not like I see Bryan's random troll as the way things are. I was just hoping to get a counter arguement, since I think Ivo and I both posted some intresting responses (That he decided to ignore). I like debates like these