Save-States; the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

[DocHauser]

According to Prometheus - top DDP player, who wrote the Full Extent of the Jam guide - some people consider that even just watching replays of other players is cheating!

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34497

He recommends MAME over PCBs for practice, though, and save states is one of the best ways to improve your performance quickly:

If your mind is still troubled because you can't help but think you're not
playing the authentic, real thing, then go buy a PCB, but still practice with MAME,
and use the PCB only to perform your high scoring runs.

Saved states will allow you to learn at least 5 times faster by allowing you
to skip those easy first stages, and isolating hard sections that need more
attention. More on that later. For now, just remember it is a really crucial perk.

By all means, avoid PCBs for practicing. They do not have either level
select or saved states and are no good for learning. I cannot stress enough how
important that is. I know the Japanese players who scored in the first Japanese
rankings learned this way, but that's, indeed, only because they didn't have a
choice. Believe me, if they could have used MAME, the MAME users would have
come far on top of the others.
PCBs are also very expensive. If you love PCBs, it's not a bad idea to play
your final scoring runs on PCB though. Just find a way to set up recording
equipment to record off the PCB.

[prfsnl_gmr]

I am not sure you need them for high score threads. There are no prizes; the group that competes there is pretty small; and I think you can trust everyone.

While I emulated some games years ago, I do not currently have any emulators loaded on my computers. That said, I have also used save states to practice a few sections on some older games (i.e., Battletoads). Likewise, I have used save states to get through a few games, but I only saved between levels on older games that: (1) did not have a password or save system; and (2) are too long for me to complete in a single sitting (i.e., Battletoads).

[noiseredux]

Savestates is cheating... except in Battletoads.

word.

[Luke]

And obviously any score that has been gained using save states is cheating.

You were stating the obvious.

This gave me a laugh.

[Ivo]

I use them to save time in general practicing, skipping a long boot up sequence, keeping an high store table from being reset from a session to another, avoiding hassle with password systems or similar.

I do not use them for scoring as I'm competing for myself. If someone wants to "cheat" and brag about it it doesn't bother me that much as long as there aren't prizes.

I usually don't use them for completing a game / speedrunning (or similar) and I think if I do I explicitly state so. In several games using save states is actually akin to credit-feeding. In others it isn't (most scoring games reset the score for a new credit, for example). I also comment on credit-feeding if I completed the game that way.

I'm not participating on the tournament in question, but in a few Together Retro games I've submitted scores and if I used save states in those, it was only to save time in practice and not to get the actual higher scores.

[DocHauser]

And obviously any score that has been gained using save states is cheating.

You were stating the obvious.

This gave me a laugh.

Repeating your point to emphasise how obvious it was? That made you laugh?

[prfsnl_gmr]

Savestates is cheating... except in Battletoads.

word.

Basically...

(I do think that save states make Battletoads an immensely more enjoyable game. There is some great design there, but no one got to see it because Rare - for some reason - could not be bothered to implement a basic password system...)

I also think that using save states to get through The Adventures of Bayou Billy is not really cheating...but I couldn't even get through that game with an emulator. (Again...hats off to Luke for that one.)

[Ivo]

As others have pointed out, using save states really gives a considerable boost due to sheer time efficiency in training. This alone could justify the score difference - but there are other possible factors:

Number of players - in general you get less players on PCB, and it may just be that from the larger number of MAME players you get a self-selection effect on the ones that post scores being the better ones.

Controls - maybe the controls or layout connected to the setup of the PCB are not ideal. I can think of a few examples where I personally do much better on a keyboard instead of a joystick. MAME gives you a lot of flexibility setting up your controls, PCBs (barring particularly specialized hardware I think) do not.

[Luke]

Repeating your point to emphasise how obvious it was? That made you laugh?

Nope. The fact you state the obvious, and then basically say "Why are you stating the obvious?" which is exactly what you did.

I also think that using save states to get through The Adventures of Bayou Billy is not really cheating...but I couldn't even get through that game with an emulator. (Again...hats off to Luke for that one.)

CHEATING!

Oh the torment that game gave me...The nightmares...That music, over and over, and over...The horror.

[mjmjr25]

Here's the thing - and just using your post in this thread and the Eco thread as an example, Doc. You stated Eco wasn't a terrible game...but you also stated you used save states to improve your tactics at multiple points of the game.

This completely changes the experience - if you had to run the whole game from boring intro to stage 4 boss every time, for 20 minutes, you would likely have found it a snoozefest like skate, noise, and I. If I can pick and choose the best / hardest parts to practice, dunno, just doesn't feel right to me.

That however, is a personal preference. (Using savestates)

The big thing here is the issue that the MAME scores in our SotM the past 2 years have generally been higher than console/pcb scores. I don't know of anyone in particular, but it would stand to reason, that some folks are finagling the system. We all know - shmups are very serious business.

I think if you have a legit run, it would behoove that person to record the run, afaik, it's literally hitting 2 buttons. Shmups STGT requires this for top runs - granted, ours is a friendlier club, I just want to maintain it stays that way by avoiding any chasms.