Save-States; the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

[noiseredux]

I'm with mj on this. shmuos are the only genre I play for score.

[Nyukki]

shmuos are the only genre I play for score.

Shmups and Tetris

[dunpeal2064]

Agree here, while I use save states on a lot of games that I'm learning to get better at (doing this with Mega Man now), and I treat beating it with save states as a "half-victory" as it just signifies you beat each part of the game one time, it's there as a thing for practice and working on specific parts of a game, or maybe as a first playthrough so you can get to see the full game one time through should you have limited continue and/or get pushed back to the start of a long stage or you're still just beginning (MUSHA in my case).

Score purposes, yeah, can't imagine submitting a save state score, but they serve a purpose for us SHMUP rookies!

Yeah, no one should submit a save state score. That is uncool.

On the same foot, no one should submit a score where they used continues either

As for there being less satisfaction for accomplishing something with a save state, I feel like the people claiming this have never tried? When you have to put 50+ hours into each 30 second chunk of a game to practice it to perfection, its not the practice that is rewarding, but finally pulling everything you have learned together into one perfect run.

Its like practiicing a piece of music to me. Was the practice fun? It can be, it might have been frustrating. But, when you pull it all together, and play the entire song flawlessly, that, imo, is far more satisfying than "jamming", so to say, while making flaws all over the place. This is especially true if the piece of music is insanely difficult, and over 20 minutes long

[mjmjr25]

I hear what your saying and don't disagree. However, and i'm afraid to use any analogies after some of the doozies in this thread already, so i'll just say it as plain as I can.

Right now, i'm loving stage 4 in Mushi, right? I need some work on some sections - but it is so much more rewarding to me to see it new, on one run, than to just start there. It just feels more "authentic" and "rewarding". I mean, i've never seen the 5th stage in Ibara, I've never seen the 4th stage in Akai Katana, I've never seen the 4th stage MMP, and I like it that way. It's like, I want to "earn" it each time. I think it largely depends on the game. If it's a snoozefest and i'm in a comp, I can def. see playing a certain part to get better in a hurry and avoiding the tedium. Or in my case, if it's like Pro Gear, i've seen everything MANY times, I just haven't taken it down completely, so at this point, a lot of the allure is gone, and if I want to be able to run it through perfectly, I probably would benefit from save-state practicing the start of stage 4 and the mid-boss / final boss on stage 5.

[dunpeal2064]

^ Agree 100%. I have not used states in Mushi, and probably won't for quite some time (Honestly, they probably don't even work). Same with Ibara, Ketsui, DOJ... I won't use states (Or credit feed) to see any stage that I haven't reached on one credit. I love the feeling of finally earning another stage, especially with how the quality of Cave's stages jumps so much as the games progress.

The point you are at now with Progear is usually where I would start save stating to practice, in a game that I really love. With Futari, for example, I didn't use any practice method until I reached the final boss, and even then, I just wanted some practice at her so that I felt a little more confident. Now that I clear the game in almost every run, there are some spots that I need near pixel-perfect play to get the most points out of each stage, and I have no probelm jumping around the game, as I am very familiar with the entire game.

I'm not a save state fiend or anything, I just think they are really useful in some situations. Again, with Dodonpachi... it would either be states, or no Dodonpachi. I've already looped it, and practicing chains is freakin tough. Or with Eco Fighters, game has so many safe spots, and getting to a boss to die a few dozen times just finding a safespot, in itself, is not very fun. So, using states to make this progress faster made the game more enjoyable overall for me.

My posts in this thread have been unintentioanlly obese.

[nightrnr]

...you really aren't experiencing the game if you don't investigate the scoring.

I disagree on this. I mean I understand finding the hidden depth in a game, but geez, a person can decide if they are experiencing a game adequately (thank you very much). No wrong way to eat a Reeses and all that.

I don't say this to sound elitist at all, I say this so hopefully those playing for survival alone take the time to find out about scoring in the game they are playing.

I think, to several casual players, it's going to sound elitist no matter what.
For a long while (and maybe a little still), I ignored most Shmup and Fighting game forums just because of that. I usually find a group of people that enjoy the games on a level that just mocks the rest of us (intentional or not; but either way, the casual gamer need not apply).
Nothing wrong with pointing out a better way, but hey, some like their game playing as-is and trying to change that may just result in taking the fun out of it.
Also, when I show my nephews (or anyone really) some of my shooting games, I will be coaching them how to survive, not about getting a good score.

I think I might have to label myself as a casual gamer with hard-core tastes.

In many cases, finding out how the scoring works...leads to extends...which betters your chances at survival.

Yeah, I thought about this, and it's definitely relevant. But there is still a limit to a person's skill and one player may well be shooting themselves in the foot in the attempt to get that extend (at least, that has often been my experience). Again, scoring has always seemed secondary to me. You play concentrating on gameplay rather than numbers, and the numbers help you out as a reward for your improvement. No point in losing focus to score until you are already quite proficient.

There are some games where scoring and survival are intricately intertwined...

This is the most clever use for scoring IMO (hence my Radiant Silvergun reference on my previous post). As I mentioned, extra lives don't always help you out if you more often die in the attempt anyways. But increasing firepower, there's a risk/reward that I can get behind (...something about offense being good defense).

In any case, I like your thinking on the matter and only really disagree with the first quote. The rest is just my own experience.