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Exhuminator
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Re: So, late to the SF IV party...

by Exhuminator Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:45 pm

To spare everyone the pain of seeing a lot of quote boxes, I've put my reply to CD AGES in a spoiler.
CD AGES wrote:so III's character designs are trash by your accounts but whats IV got going for it in same category

Did I ever say I thought SF IV's character designs were superior to SF III's? No I did not. This is actually what I said about SF IV's character designs:
Exhuminator wrote:I do think the character models are too "thick", even the men look like they're overly "big boned", and the women all have thunder thighs.

CD AGES wrote:You have a bone pick character designs like Oro, Necro, but Hakan gets a pass? Ok.

You are creating a strawman argument based on a contrast that I never presented as any sort of proof of SF IV's superiority over SF III.
CD AGES wrote:IV's popularity was the result of a series being dormant for well over a decade

Street Fighter EX3 didn't exist? Or does it conveniently not count as an actual Street Fighter game, despite being named as such?

Street Fighter IV was popular for many reasons. Not the least of which were its amazing graphics, fast 3D fighting engine, and robust online capabilities. It was popular for all sorts of combat mechanics which you yourself listed in excess. It was also made available on all kinds of platforms, thus making it highly accessible for maximum demographic exposure.
CD AGES wrote:There was nothing IV had to compete with in 2009.

Nothing except Tekken 6, The King of Fighters XII, and BlazBlue: Calamity Trigger that is.
CD AGES wrote:V an evolution of everything IV is!? Have you played the game or even analyzed competent match footage of the game because that couldn't further from the truth

Are you privy to every feature Capcom plans to slowly roll out for V with each inevitable iteration? Neither am I. So who knows what may come. But for now:
CD AGES wrote:So where are the Focus attacks then?

Evolved into V-Triggers.
CD AGES wrote:The Ultra Combo system?

Evolved into Critical Arts.
CD AGES wrote:Invincibility on backdashers

Evolved into throw invulnerability.
CD AGES wrote:V sees the return of the Stun meter, Ryu's ability to parry, tech'able knockdowns. Features prevalent in SF III series.

Did III have Crush Counters? Chip damage on normals? V-Skills? V-Reversals?
CD AGES wrote:Heck, even the life HUD looks nearly identical to SF III's

The life HUD looks nearly identical to tons of other fighting games, it's kind of a staple of the genre now. But V also has a visible Stun meter, visible V-trigger meter, an EX gauge, no score counter... a bit different than III after all.

Your whole argument seems to be based on the notion that you think that I think Street Fighter III is a bad game. I never said SF III is a bad game. I said SF III has bad character designs, not bad gameplay. Nor did I ever say that SF IV's character designs are superior to SF III's.
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Re: So, late to the SF IV party...

by marurun Sun Jun 21, 2015 12:32 am

Now that Exhuminator has responded, let's all remember to have feisty but POLITE discussion.

I dig some of the SFIII designs, but not all. Same for IV. Mainly, for me, SFIII seems to have gone a bit deeper into the "weird" end of the idea pool than I'm accustomed to from Street Fighter. Some of the characters would almost work better in a post-apocalyptic fighter than as part of the SF canon.
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Re: So, late to the SF IV party...

by the7k Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:04 am

Exhuminator wrote:
the7k wrote:I think the word you are looking for is "resorting," ye oafish, plonker of a cumberground.

It's called auto-correct, something modern smartphones do while you're not looking.

I would be willing to explain to you why SF III's character designs are sub-par, in a way that's intellectual rather than snide. But I would only be willing to do so, if you bothered to show even an ounce of respect towards me. You don't know me, nor do you know my gaming history or knowledge. You have no factual repository to accuse that I'm an uncultured oafish plonker swine whatever. On a more regulated forum you'd have gotten a temporary ban for your childish attitude.

I will reiterate that Street Fighter III's new character designs are utter trash. And Street Fighter IV is a really, really great game. Hence its popularity and continued staying power. Thankfully Street Fighter V is an evolution of everything IV is, with little regard to what III was. Now have a nice day sir.


Man, you really took all that shit seriously? Jesus Christ. If I wanted to insult you, I'd call you something far worse than an uncultured swine.

As for your "gaming history and knowledge," why would you include Hugo up there? He's not a SF3 character. He's a Final Fight character.

Also regarding your gaming history and knowledge, why would you mention Dudley being a Balrog knockoff? Certainly you realize that he's based off of Eagle and not Balrog.

Similarly, Yun and Yang are based off of Lee. Makoto is based off of Retsu. Ibuki is based off of Geki. So on and so on. The cast of Street Fighter III are a "new generation" based off of the old one. They take the concepts of these older characters and expand upon them.

Also, keep in mind that Ryu, Ken and the rest of the "old gang" were supposed to stay absent until marketing came along. Taking these expies away, what's the thing almost every "New Challenger" has in common? Lack of a ground projectile with the exception of Oro. Even Sean, the new shotokan, lacks a ground projectile. This isn't a mistake. This is a reflection of the game system. The game was supposed to move away from zone-heavy projectile warfare and into a faster-paced, mix-up heavy, tick-throwing melee. The new main character being a grappler is definitely a reflection of this.

The SF3 cast was designed specifically with the game system in mind. This is far more than can be said of the SF4 cast, which don't seem to be designed with anything in mind. SF4 is clearly meant to be a more defense oriented game as evident by the lack of walk speed, the FADC making almost any mistake correctable, and the Revenge system rewarding players for being on the defense rather than offense, yet you've got characters like Rufus with suffocating dive kick pressure, El Fuerte with piss-poor defense but confusing mix-up shenanigans, and Viper with some of the most potent offensive tools in the game for those willing to put in the mountain of effort.

Street Fighter IV is only popular because it is current. As soon as SFV comes along and has had its day in the sun, I'd be very surprised if it gets even Skullgirls numbers. I'm not even saying V will be better because no one can really know - but I do know that V will be more current, and that's the only reason people are playing SF4.
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Re: So, late to the SF IV party...

by Exhuminator Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:28 am

the7k wrote:Man, you really took all that shit seriously? Jesus Christ. If I wanted to insult you, I'd call you something far worse than an uncultured swine.

An occasional emoticon or the famous Racketboy blue font of obvious sarcasm, either would go a long way in letting someone know you're only joking.

I don't care what the lineage of SF III's new characters was. Their base artistic conception I found to be disingenuous to the Street Fighter games that had come before. What Marurun said about the character designs does a great job of encapsulating my issues with them. So no point in me reiterating what he already said in further excruciating detail.

Now, that's just my opinion. If you disagree, that's fine. But no amount of bickering about that is going to change either of our opinions. I'm all for letting this topic go back to what it was originally about; Street Fighter IV.

Street Fighter IV is only popular because it is current.

Most game series' latest entry is always the hottest ticket, until the next sequel comes out. That's not really unusual is it?
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Re: So, late to the SF IV party...

by the7k Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:38 am

Exhuminator wrote:
Street Fighter IV is only popular because it is current.

Most game series' latest entry is always the hottest ticket, until the next sequel comes out. That's not really unusual is it?

And Street Fighter IV is a really, really great game. Hence its popularity and continued staying power.

This is what I'm arguing with.

You claim it is popular because it is a really, really great game. I claim it is popular because it is new. It has continued staying power because... why? This has yet to be proven in any way, shape or form.

Once SF4 has been discontinued. Once SF4 is set aside for a new game. THIS is when "staying power" is determined. Third Strike? Has staying power. It has been discontinued and yet many, MANY people continue to play it. Super Turbo also has staying power, as it has a similar following. KOF'98, KOF'02, VSav, Garou, these are all games that have proven they have staying power because they have long since been abandoned and yet they still have fairly large player bases. Only time will tell with SF4, and my money is on it being forgotten quickly and quietly in much the same way as SFA3 (which, despite it's problems, was a far more deserving game).
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Re: So, late to the SF IV party...

by marurun Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:06 am

Dave Sirlin has voiced a number of mixed opinions on SFIV's mechanics, but it would be hard to argue he has an unbiased perspective, given that he helped bring SSF2T HD into being and then parted ways with Capcom on maybe less than fantastic terms.

Still wonder why SSF2T HD never made it to Japan. I'd read speculation that there was fear that having American hands "soil" the game might have prevented it's JPN release...
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Re: So, late to the SF IV party...

by Exhuminator Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:09 am

the7k wrote:It has continued staying power because... why?

Because it's a really, really great game.
This has yet to be proven in any way, shape or form.

SF IV has sold over 7.5 million copies in its various releases.
With that many sales, I'd say the game's doing something right.
http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Best_selling_Capcom_games
THIS is when "staying power" is determined. Third Strike? Has staying power. It has been discontinued and yet many, MANY people continue to play it.

Many people as in what? The niche hardcore fighting community you frequent? III's a big fish in a small pond, is that what you're saying? What about the rest of the gaming community though? You know, the MILLIONS of people who bought and played SF IV and all of its expansions? The MILLIONS of people who likely never even played SF III? Do you have any idea how many more people have played SF IV than have played SF III based on sheer sales alone? The difference is astronomical.

Given how many copies of SF IV are available across myriad platforms, it's inevitable that people will still be playing SF IV for many years to come, based on sheer accessibility now and in later after markets. That's the staying power I'm talking about right there. I'm not talking about its staying power in being respected in the hardcore community. I'm talking about the game being available and accessible to the masses for years to come.
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Re: So, late to the SF IV party...

by o.pwuaioc Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:32 am

Just because a lot of people buy a game doesn't mean it has staying power. Exhibit A: all those sports games now priced at 25 cents at various game stores.
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Re: So, late to the SF IV party...

by the7k Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:34 am

Street Fighter Alpha 3 is available on the PS1, PS2, PSN, GBA, PSP, Saturn and Dreamcast, yet it isn't played anymore. There's no scene for that game. It's dead.

And I gotta admit, there's something a bit humorous about someone on a dedicating gaming forum claiming that high sales prove that a game is good.

Also judging by that chart, it looks like SF4 is selling less and less with each iteration. How is that supposed to be proving anything positive?

Whatever. I guess you have at least proven that one person will still be playing this "game."

Hoi Polloi don't keep a fighting game alive, no matter how scrub friendly they try to make it. If they did, then people would still be playing Street Fighter II, as in the original 8 character slow-as-snails Street Fighter II, as it alone sold nearly as much as SF4 has sold when you include every single variation it's come out with. But who plays Street Fighter II? No one. People play Super Turbo. Ya know, the one a competitive scene plays. The one dedicated fans play.
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Re: So, late to the SF IV party...

by Exhuminator Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:35 am

o.pwuaioc wrote:Just because a lot of people buy a game doesn't mean it has staying power. Exhibit A: all those sports games now priced at 25 cents at various game stores.

Serialized fighting games VS annualized sports games have significant differences. Equating the two is apples and oranges.
the7k wrote:And I gotta admit, there's something a bit humorous about someone on a dedicating gaming forum claiming that high sales prove that a game is good.

the7k wrote:Whatever. I guess you have at least proven that one person will still be playing this "game."

the7k wrote:The one dedicated fans play.

First you try to imply I'm some kind of ignorant casual, then you imply I'll be the last dedicated fan of SF IV, but then you imply I'm not a dedicated fan of the Street Fighter series after all.

There is three separate insinuated ad hominem attacks serving to attempt to discredit the validity of my opinions. When you continuously use this method of debate, it makes me lose respect for the person I'm trying to converse with. Honestly I'm tired of your ad hominem tactics.

Whether or not SF IV continues to have a fan-base post V's release, is something neither myself nor you can definitively claim to know at this time. If you want to know why the game is considered great go read any of the countless positive reviews for it. Oh wait, none of those reviewers are "real gamers" so their opinions are immediately disqualified I`m sure. And the millions of people who bought the game are obviously uneducated ignorant casuals, so their opinion doesn't count either. I understand now.

edits: fixed auto-correct misspellings, I think I'm done using my phone to browse this forum :lol:
Last edited by Exhuminator on Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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