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J T wrote:But it doesn't necessarily teach people to be self reliant. It just makes it so the rich kids that have their parents pay for their college have an advantage over the students that have to juggle a job plus school. It creates a class divide and then everyone blames the poor for asking for handouts, when really they just wanted equal footing in the school system to their wealthy peers.

I think it can also be a waste of time and resources in some cases. Lets say that theres a mathematically talented kid whose strong points arent manual labor and social skills. If he should work at some menial job - Mc Donalds for instance, it wont help him in anyway. In fact it might hinder his progress. Working means that there is less time to study and the pressure of social situations and such might exhaust him mentally. Even if he does fine, the burger flipping job still doesnt prepare him in anyway to work in the field of science, so why should he devote his time to something like that? It just means that it takes more for him to graduate, or he might even get burned out and totally lose his intrest to science. Its better for the "common good" that specially talented people are let to focus on their own intrests intensively, so that they can help the mankind by making progress in science and technology. Of course that example aplies to only a small minority of students.

Menegrothx wrote:

J T wrote:But it doesn't necessarily teach people to be self reliant. It just makes it so the rich kids that have their parents pay for their college have an advantage over the students that have to juggle a job plus school. It creates a class divide and then everyone blames the poor for asking for handouts, when really they just wanted equal footing in the school system to their wealthy peers.

I think it can also be a waste of time and resources in some cases. Lets say that theres a mathematically talented kid whose strong points arent manual labor and social skills. If he should work at some menial job - Mc Donalds for instance, it wont help him in anyway. In fact it might hinder his progress. Working means that there is less time to study and the pressure of social situations and such might exhaust him mentally. Even if he does fine, the burger flipping job still doesnt prepare him in anyway to work in the field of science, so why should he devote his time to something like that? It just means that it takes more for him to graduate, or he might even get burned out and totally lose his intrest to science. Its better for the "common good" that specially talented people are let to focus on their own intrests intensively, so that they can help the mankind by making progress in science and technology. Of course that example aplies to only a small minority of students.

JT- I stated first and foremost in my post that it was to a point. But really and truthfully, I get really tired of seeing menial labor being put down so much. Part of the problem in the world today is lack of understanding of menial labor- just like JT's wealthy kid point. People don't understand how important it is!!! Nobody is willing to do it!!!! (Sorry, personal frustration.)

But, the main problem I see, is that the world expects us to be so well educated when so few can truly stand up to the point. Unless people are specifically chosen for their jobs in life from the beginning, that's one thing. But say, me. People always put me down. Why? Because I want to go into agriculture instead of some other high and mighty job. I could do chemistry, biology, or such. But I don't want to, and I have no motivation to, as it is not a field that interests me. Yet, people seem to think that because I am smart, I must get a good education.

The problem really and truly is too high of expectations from the general public. We can't all be doctors or biophysicists. But, the world wants us to be. On occasion, we do have the person that can and will become one. Send him to college. Let the rest of us do as we will in the world, happily.

Meh, I completely lost my point halfway through.

I respect wanting to be in agriculture forlorn drifter college can help with that, by coming up with more productive ways to increase crop yield and your livestock.
I am a product of menial labor i grew up farming and various other jobs, because of that i have job skills alot of guys don't. I had a rich friend who has no skills due to her parents handing her everything and when they stopped she became a welfare recipient. I may write like a 10 yr old but i carried a 4.0 all the while working 2 jobs at 16 i dropped out to care for my father and get a 3rd job. I have no regrets cause i was able to help my dad and later help support my older brother and his kids when they needed it. I never thought i would see people on govt aid living better than me for setting on there asses. Cause they don'twant there friends seeing them flipping burgers and make fun of them. While those that truly need that help can't get it I.E. The disabled and elderly having to choose between medicene and food cause there is not enough money in there ss check.

Forlorn Drifter wrote:JT- I stated first and foremost in my post that it was to a point. But really and truthfully, I get really tired of seeing menial labor being put down so much. Part of the problem in the world today is lack of understanding of menial labor- just like JT's wealthy kid point. People don't understand how important it is!!! Nobody is willing to do it!!!! (Sorry, personal frustration.)

But, the main problem I see, is that the world expects us to be so well educated when so few can truly stand up to the point. Unless people are specifically chosen for their jobs in life from the beginning, that's one thing. But say, me. People always put me down. Why? Because I want to go into agriculture instead of some other high and mighty job. I could do chemistry, biology, or such. But I don't want to, and I have no motivation to, as it is not a field that interests me. Yet, people seem to think that because I am smart, I must get a good education.

The problem really and truly is too high of expectations from the general public. We can't all be doctors or biophysicists. But, the world wants us to be. On occasion, we do have the person that can and will become one. Send him to college. Let the rest of us do as we will in the world, happily.

I wasnt putting down manual labor. I respect people who want to work while studying and what not, I just dont see a reason why students should be flipping burgers just because its work, if they can live fine with out it. Many people value free time over the extra money they get from doing an additional job, espescially in many "low end" jobs you do the hard work and get the associated health problems for a bad salary, while some one else gets the actual profit out of that work (that sounds like COMMIE TALK! ). That little extra money you get just isnt worth of all the free time and health problems.


I agree that modern world values education (and connections) far too much. I was always one of the best students in my class and got the best grades in many subjects, but I have no aspirations to go study anymore because I dont want to deal with social situations, public transportation and things like that. But you need a formal education to do a lot of the blue collar jobs too. And in many cases a big portion of the studying is just wasted on useless information and things like that, stuff you dont really need in work life. There are a lot of "useless" academics around nowadays because of that.

Living off the land alone in the nature sounds like a great idea on paper but unless you are a commercial farmer or live in a some sort of hippy commune, its pretty much a lifestyle that eats up all of your waking time, 365 days a year and binds you into one location. It takes a lot of money to actually get started and if you break a leg, solar panel or something like that, you are fucked. Humans beings are more efficient when they trade with each other and specialize in different fields - if you are trying to be truly self-sufficient, ie not dependant on the markets or not a part of some agricultural community, it takes tremendous amounts of work to get everything that you need, as traditionally one person has farmed crop a, second crop b, third made bread, fourth medicine etc.
Though should something drastic happen, survivalist/self-sufficient people and communities are the ones who will survive (duh)

Menegrothx wrote:I wasnt putting down manual labor. I respect people who want to work while studying and what not, I just dont see a reason why students should be flipping burgers just because its work, if they can live fine with out it. Many people value free time over the extra money they get from doing an additional job, espescially in many "low end" jobs you do the hard work and get the associated health problems for a bad salary, while some one else gets the actual profit out of that work (that sounds like COMMIE TALK! ). That little extra money you get just isnt worth of all the free time and health problems.

I wouldn't suggest burger flipping as a career but it can be a good stepping stone to a career as a restaurant manager or owner or general life experience. It will give you good experience working in that environment, dealing with people/customers, etc.

I worked in a couple of restaurants for 4 years to earn spending money and savings. First it was as a busser/dishwasher for 2 months and then was quickly promoted to broiler chef. I worked in the kitchen ever since. I still look fondly back on my experience and it helped me be the person that I am today.

There are smart people who have poor social skills. You need to have good social skills if you want to do well in your career/life.

gtmtnbiker wrote:I wouldn't suggest burger flipping as a career but it can be a good stepping stone to a career as a restaurant manager or owner or general life experience. It will give you good experience working in that environment, dealing with people/customers, etc.

If nothing else, it will (hopefully) give you empathy for folks in service jobs that you interact with.

Objectively, my social skills aren't great, despite having worked in food service, retail, maintenance, and so on as a teenager (better than otherwise? perhaps). I am, however, more inclined to cut people in those positions some slack as a result.

This article was sophomoric and shortsighted, often confusion correlation with causation, and clearly written with an anti male slant.
There are many reasons so many men are not getting jobs and moving out. The economy is the worst I have seen since Jimmy Carter. Men are being especially hard hit.( they don't help with quotas so are easier to fire without getting in trouble with equal opportunity laws)
In the seventies there was a big problem with anti girl bias. It was wrong. However, In their zeal to correct the problem they have gone overboard and have sacrificed the education of boys. Boys are now being drugged with Ritalin and other controlled substances for simply being unable to sit and learn, like girls. There was a time when we understood that equality meant in equality in opportunity. Somewhere along the line this was perverted to read that there are no differences between boys and girls and any recognition of these obvious differences should be ignored. This has lead to boys graduating with poor grades, and little hope for a well paying job. Look at the College graduation gap between men and women these days. It's astounding.
Young black men have been especially hard hit in this economy and are suffering from unemployment rates as high as 40%.
Also, the idea of a student loan sounds awesome. Until you are $160,000 in debt and have no job. Then it becomes a burden. I can't tell you how many times I was told I was "overqualified" for a job. My dad told me I should go to College so I didn't become a " ditch digger"
He should have let me dig ditches ......since a machine operator makes as much as some doctors with easier hours and none of the legal issues.

Johnodog wrote:However, In their zeal to correct the problem they have gone overboard and have sacrificed the education of boys. Boys are now being drugged with Ritalin and other controlled substances for simply being unable to sit and learn, like girls.

I see this argument come up a lot and I'd like to learn more about it, if anyone is willing to discuss. I'm only 26, so I was born after the feminist movement and didn't witness the equality shift firsthand. But this male-sympathetic educational environment that gets alluded to -- what time period are we talking about? Did anybody here live through it? And how was it different from today's environment?

I ask because I've always been under the impression that prep schools for boys focused on the same sorts of behaviors now being labeled "anti-boy": discipline, quiet study, intense book learning. The only "pro-boy" spin I'm aware of was the muscular christianity movement which came to prominence in the 1800s through the early 1900s(ish), and believed that boys needed to be hyper-athletic as well as mentally educated to transform into spiritually righteous and healthy men. It was also not very sympathetic towards stereotypical nerds, which is interesting to consider since a lot us of probably wouldn't have done well under the wing of that movement.

I'd like to mention too that I read several studies in college which observed classes in more modern times (I want to say the 1990s, but maybe earlier) which found some pro-boy bias at the expense of girls, so that's not unheard of. One study found that girls who called out in class without raising their hands were chastised by teachers and/or ignored, whereas boys who called out were heeded and given positive reinforcement for doing so. So even when girls were supposedly equal, and were able to sit and learn, in some situations if they broke from the meek, polite feminine mold, they were discouraged from succeeding regardless of their scholarly abilities.

The coupling of masculine athletics with academic learning has been around since at least Plato, who made that the very basis of his educational system in the Republic.

http://blackinformant.wordpress.com/200 ... b-project/

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/ed ... view_x.htm

Here are two sources that do a reasonable job in highlighted the shift I am talking about. Please keep in my that I have two daughters and no sons so I do not want to abandon the good work that has been done to be more inclusive to girls. I just want a balance so that society doesn't continue to raise men with little or no chance to succeed. Also, the o5riginal subject was an article about Man/boys that ignored these real world issues in favor of some twisted form of seventies feminism. i.e. every woman a victim, every man a predator or dolt who only cares about sex. Thanks for the great input. A very interesting and intelligent discussion.