Nerds and Male Privilege

[dsheinem]

Dave, I'm going to play devils advocate here and ask a simple question: Are women entitled to a fundamental change in nerd culture so as to accommodate their entry?

I think so, yes, if only because so many in the culture claim to hold ideologies of fairness, equality, and anti-sexism/racism/etc. whilst simultaneously (unwittingly or not) engaging in practices that make these ideals impossible to achieve. As I mentioned before, nerd culture is in and of itself a place where (traditionally) people who have interests and abilities that aren't as valued by dominant culture can get away and find camaraderie, community, and an environment in which they are treated fairly. Any principles or practices of exclusion would seem to be antithetical to this climate, yet persist anyway.

Personally, I see something very unfair about that idea.

I'm not sure why it is unfair to ask a culture to fully embrace a set of beliefs it purports to hold to.

[noiseredux]

I felt like it was an article looking for a point as opposed to a point that warranted an article.

y'know I wrote a really long mishmash response to the article, but deleted it because I didn't quite know what I was trying to say. THIS^ sentence sums it up. I agree with many points made in the article. But I also don't feel like "oh right on!" I think this is why.

[Flake]

I think so, yes, if only because so many in the culture claim to hold ideologies of fairness, equality, and anti-sexism/racism/etc. whilst simultaneously (unwittingly or not) engaging in practices that make these ideals impossible to achieve. As I mentioned before, nerd culture is in and of itself a place where (traditionally) people who have interests and abilities that aren't as valued by dominant culture can get away and find camaraderie, community, and an environment in which they are treated fairly. Any principles or practices of exclusion would seem to be antithetical to this climate, yet persist anyway.

Which brings me to the other problem I had with the article: Who are these people who claim to have these beliefs? As a general rule, nerds are the most entitled, arrogant, and exclusionary people I have ever met. Nerds treat each other poorly and pass judgement on one another for the most silly and arbitrary reasons.

There are exceptions, of course. The whole of the RB community is heads and shoulders over the typical nerds but take a jaunt over to gamefaqs, deviant art, or any of the thousands of Japanese cartoon forums and you're going to get an example of a much larger segment of nerd culture.

Typically, nerds who are tolerant and accepting are people who would be so despite being nerds.

I'm not sure why it is unfair to ask a culture to fully embrace a set of beliefs it purports to hold to.

Assuming the culture DOES purport to hold these beliefs (which I do not think is true), a culture as a community evolves based on the wants and desires of those who partake in it - culture is a living entity, constantly changing and evolving. You can not just arbitrarily demand an artificial change in nerd culture.

[EvilRyu2099]

I think the first response to the article sums up my opinion... That was probably the best response I've seen in awhile...

[DinnerX]

A man isn't going to have everything about him filtered through the prism of his gender first.

This claim is off. Women don't have everything filtered by their gender. In addition, men also have times when they are judged by their gender.

Men also won't have their opinions weighed or dismissed solely on the basis of how sexy or attractive they are.

Everyone gets their opinions dismissed over petty things like attractiveness.

I think the complaints in the article apply to society as a whole and not just the subculture. That doesn't make it good of course. I don't know where the author gets idea that geeks claim to be more accepting than anyone else in this regard. I've never heard it. Not that it would be a bad thing too do.

[dsheinem]

I think so, yes, if only because so many in the culture claim to hold ideologies of fairness, equality, and anti-sexism/racism/etc. whilst simultaneously (unwittingly or not) engaging in practices that make these ideals impossible to achieve. As I mentioned before, nerd culture is in and of itself a place where (traditionally) people who have interests and abilities that aren't as valued by dominant culture can get away and find camaraderie, community, and an environment in which they are treated fairly. Any principles or practices of exclusion would seem to be antithetical to this climate, yet persist anyway.

Which brings me to the other problem I had with the article: Who are these people who claim to have these beliefs? As a general rule, nerds are the most entitled, arrogant, and exclusionary people I have ever met. Nerds treat each other poorly and pass judgement on one another for the most silly and arbitrary reasons.

There are exceptions, of course. The whole of the RB community is heads and shoulders over the typical nerds but take a jaunt over to gamefaqs, deviant art, or any of the thousands of Japanese cartoon forums and you're going to get an example of a much larger segment of nerd culture.

Typically, nerds who are tolerant and accepting are people who would be so despite being nerds.

I'm not sure why it is unfair to ask a culture to fully embrace a set of beliefs it purports to hold to.

Assuming the culture DOES purport to hold these beliefs (which I do not think is true), a culture as a community evolves based on the wants and desires of those who partake in it - culture is a living entity, constantly changing and evolving. You can not just arbitrarily demand an artificial change in nerd culture.

Again, you make some very good points here - I guess the crux of the issue, as you point out, is "what do you believe are the core beliefs about equality and acceptance in nerd culture?"

I think that the insulting/flaming/etc. in nerd culture that you allude to is usually grounded in debates about the "stuff" of the culture (e.g. Sony vs MS, Star Trek vs. Star Wars, whether Nightmare on Elm Street sucks, why "bro gamers" are Satan, etc.). I don't think that the majority of these folks (even on other forums) would base their opinions of and insults towards one another on biological characteristics. When women are marginalized because they are women, that seems contradictory to me. So while nerds can certainly be arrogant, entitled, etc. - that doesn't mean they also have to be sexist.

Maybe sexism is just an inherent part of the culture, but I'd like to think otherwise. I'd also like to believe that the changes over time that you've alluded to has brought the culture to a place where it can be a bit more self-reflexive and open to change. I guess I see now as the right time to evolve, and I see this article as the kind of thing that can help people start to think about the problem and how change might happen sooner rather than later.

[noiseredux]

I'd be pretty interested to see some female thoughts in this thread.

[Flake]

Maybe sexism is just an inherent part of the culture, but I'd like to think otherwise. I'd also like to believe that the changes over time that you've alluded to has brought the culture to a place where it can be a bit more self-reflexive and open to change. I guess I see now as the right time to evolve, and I see this article as the kind of thing that can help people start to think about the problem and how change might happen sooner rather than later.

I think of it in terms of video game cover art. In the 1970's and 1980's, gaming was definitely the sole domain of the geek. You look at women on the cover of games like that and they are almost uniformly naked, in the back ground, and always in need of saving. It says something that Phantasy Star was such a big deal simply because the main character was a fully dressed woman.

Fast forward to today. The boobs are still popping out but video game women, in general, are depicted in a much stronger role, and their garb (compared to their 70's counterparts) is much more conservative. I was sad to see Super Princess Peach fly under the radar the way it did because I saw something very meaningful in that title simply existing.

Edited for saying the same thing twice.

[dsheinem]

Fast forward to today. The boobs are still popping out but video game women, in general, are depicted in a much stronger role, and their garb (compared to their 70's counterparts) is much more conservative. Best yet: Female characters are depicted stronger and more independent than ever. I was sad to see Super Princess Peach fly under the radar the way it did because I saw something very meaningful in that title simply existing.

No arguments from me that things have "improved" over time on this front (and for women in general), but, as I've suggested a few times now, the problem isn't just about (or even chiefly about) the depiction of women in games.

I'd be pretty interested to see some female thoughts in this thread.

That perspective would be welcome...I just hope that no one then falls into the essentializing trap ("See, that's what she says so that's how all women must feel!").

Think about this: don't you think the problems identified in the article have something to do with the relatively low percentage of women participating actively in even an "open-minded" forum like ours?

[noiseredux]

That perspective would be welcome...I just hope that no one then falls into the essentializing trap ("See, that's what she says so that's how all women must feel!").

that's what she said.



...ok. But seriously, as seen above your opinion doesn't even represent all male gamers. It's no different. In particular I'd love to see irixith chime in. Not because she represents all women gamers. Or even all women gamers on RB. But just because her posts are usually well thought out.