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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:45 pm
by emwearz
Ziggy587 wrote: But why would you want component video when you can easily use RGB SCART (which is better).


Late reply but, because like the States, Australia just ignored SCART almost complety.

Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:51 pm
by roadkill
My reply is late too and I apologize for that but I just had to voice my opinion to SNES_is_the_Best's post, SNES minis and 1CHIPs are "the_Best"!

Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:20 pm
by Ziggy587
emwearz wrote:
Ziggy587 wrote: But why would you want component video when you can easily use RGB SCART (which is better).


Late reply but, because like the States, Australia just ignored SCART almost complety.


Ah, I didn't know that. Well at any rate, I've completely abandoned this mod. No one has come up with the *perfect* circuit for it. Personally, I don't even find much of a difference (if any) between S-Video and YPbPr for the SNES, so I look at this as just a waste of time and money. If you really must use something better than S-Video (like if you have a newer TV without S-Video inputs) then just use the RGB output from the SNES and get an RGB-YPbPr transcoder. I say this because, again, no one has come up with a way to make this signal perfect.

For any one that's still interested though, the original nesdev thread was locked, but there's a new one here: http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=11092

roadkill wrote:My reply is late too and I apologize for that but I just had to voice my opinion to SNES_is_the_Best's post, SNES minis and 1CHIPs are "the_Best"!


This isn't the type of community that gets annoyed when old threads are bumped. Any positive contribution to a thread, new or old, is always welcomed in my book.

As far as the 1chip argument goes, I've gone back and forth a few times in my head which is better. I own several SNESes, including the 1chip. This is what I've come up with for myself: Just use whatever you think looks best.

On my HDTV, I was using an older SNES because the 1chip was looking too pixely. The older SNES looked better to me in this particular situation. But now I'm been using a (cheap Chinese) upscaler, and was also getting horrible vertical lines (plural) with the SNES PowerPak, so I switched to the 1chip. Now the 1chip looks better, and the vertical line is almost nonexistent.

Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:06 am
by roadkill
Ziggy587 wrote:
roadkill wrote:My reply is late too and I apologize for that but I just had to voice my opinion to SNES_is_the_Best's post, SNES minis and 1CHIPs are "the_Best"!


This isn't the type of community that gets annoyed when old threads are bumped. Any positive contribution to a thread, new or old, is always welcomed in my book.

As far as the 1chip argument goes, I've gone back and forth a few times in my head which is better. I own several SNESes, including the 1chip. This is what I've come up with for myself: Just use whatever you think looks best.

On my HDTV, I was using an older SNES because the 1chip was looking too pixely. The older SNES looked better to me in this particular situation. But now I'm been using a (cheap Chinese) upscaler, and was also getting horrible vertical lines (plural) with the SNES PowerPak, so I switched to the 1chip. Now the 1chip looks better, and the vertical line is almost nonexistent.

Thanks for that reassurance, I usually get bashed for bumping old topics in other website forums. That's awesome that your 1chip has had it's vertical line become almost nonexistent with the upscaler, I didn't know that was possible without modding it. Anyway, I must admit that I also thought at first that the launch SNESes had better picture on HDTVs for some reason, it does kind of have a smoothing effect like SNES_is_the_Best mentions, but it did more harm then good since it made the picture look muddy and I also started to notice a lot of interference in the picture. And of course I finally started to notice the vertical line down the middle of the screen.

I'm so impressed with the extremely clean, vibrant color and sharp picture of S-Video on my modified SNES mini that I feel like I'm using RGB already rather than S-Video. I do plan on using RGB eventually and already have the SCART cord, just need to get a SCART to component or SCART to HDMI converter.

Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:34 pm
by ApolloBoy
Calpis over on ASSEMbler suggested using the THS7314 amplifier chip in AC coupled mode for SNES component instead of a transistor-based amp. For this design, instead of grabbing Y from the multiout, you need to get it from the encoder like you would with the Pb and Pr signals. I'm tempted to try this out on my Super Famicom (which has the SHVC-CPU-01 board) even though I stick with RGB. Here's the circuit if anyone else wants to give it a try:

Image

Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:58 pm
by KalessinDB
I'm still looking to get this done, if you're looking for a test subject of a snes...

Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:08 am
by ApolloBoy
KalessinDB wrote:I'm still looking to get this done, if you're looking for a test subject of a snes...

That could be arranged, I'll send you a PM a little later...

Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:26 pm
by skate323k137
SNES_is_the_Best enable pms please.

Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:39 pm
by SNES_is_the_Best
roadkill wrote:This post of yours has some true points but the SNES mini is still the best SNES revision out there once RGB modded.


That post of mine that you quoted is old, and I have recently updated it to concur with my final conclusions. Maybe you should check it out as it doesn't match what you quoted.

roadkill wrote:Before I start I'm going to mention that I own both a SNES mini and an original SNES from 1995. I used to own one from 1991 but I sold it because the picture quality was so bad that I just didn't even want to bother with it anymore. The vertical line down the middle of the screen problem of every original SNES alone makes the SNES mini the most superior version IMO, which is completely gone on my SNES mini (some claim it's still there but just barely noticeable.)


I'm a bit skeptical at this statement. For 2 reasons.

1. Your reason for your 1991 SNES's picture quality being "so bad" was due to the vertical line. That's fine. I can understand that. But the vertical line varies from console to console, and from TV to TV (if your TV has lower black level, that will make it less noticeable. You can also recalibrate your TV to the 6500k standard, which will reduce the "blue" hue, and thus also make it less noticeable).

2. Claiming the SNES Mini doesn't have the vertical line - This is completely untrue. My SNES Mini has 4 (yes, FOUR) vertical lines. Two very noticeable ones (in the center, and on the left side) and two less noticeable ones (right beside the left one).

You "can" band-aid the vertical bar on the Mini, and you probably did so by bypassing the encoder when you RGB/Svid modded it. This will reduce it. Or you could be using a TV/Monitor with DNR, which would filter it out. But here's the kicker. I can do the exact same thing with the original SNES, via bypassing the encoder, and amping the RGB signal, and thus "band-aiding" the vertical bar.

So this argument of yours doesn't hold water. I do like your enthusiasm, but in all seriousness, both model 1 SNES and model 2 suffer from the vertical bar. My SNES Mini has it much more noticeable, and has 4 of them instead of 1. And my older 1CHIP (now sold) has the middle bar stronger than any of my SNES's, and I have 5 other Model 1 SNES's for comparison.

roadkill wrote:So anyway, the ghosting you claim the SNES minis suffer from, I've never seen it, but there are some who claim it's there but say it's just barely noticeable if you really look hard enough in only certain parts of very few games.


A display with DNR (digital noise reduction) will filter it out. My Pioneer Plasma (which is just a test dummy, and never used for gaming due to hideous input lag) has DNR, and when I set it to "High", the ghosting is 70% gone.

But I can promise you that your SNES Mini (with is a 1CHIP SNES inside of a new shell) has it. Its so bad, that when I play the 1st stage of Yoshi's Island, I can see shadow ghosting to the right of all objects moving, or non-moving. Its only noticeable on bright blue, bright green, and gray or white backgrounds. Its really annoying for me, and makes my eyes feel like they are seeing double-vision.

roadkill wrote:Also I've never read or seen anything anywhere about the SNES minis/1CHIPs having problems with any of the enhancement chip games, do you have proof? Super FX games run just fine on my SNES mini with no slowdown whatsoever


I doubt you've compared the SHVC-CPU-01 side-by-side to the 1CHIP, with 2 of the same game in both consoles on 2 separate displays.

But no I don't have "proof", but there are some claims of it happening. Here's a quick reference - - Be sure to read the entire thread before making a conclusion (its a short 1 page thread so it won't take you long)

Nevertheless, it would not surprise me in the least if the comment here is in fact true, due to the cloned nature of the consolidated chips, giving some games hiccups as a result (namely, Aladdin, Rudra No Hihou, Demon's Crest, Air Strike Patrol, etc to name a few).

roadkill wrote:On my 1991 SNES I noticed interference and it was just a smudged and dull image compared to my SNES mini. The 1995 one is slightly sharper, I think it's because it has the same RGB encoder chip as the SNES mini, but it still suffers from interference like the 1991 version. They also both suffer from jailbars and less deeper blacks. In-game text on the 1CHIP (from what I've seen on youtube) and on my SNES mini is much easier to read because of the sharper image, and the picture quality in them is just fantastic, it's just that the 1CHIP revision suffers from the vertical line problem down the middle.


You keep talking like the 1CHIP and the Mini are 2 different machines. They are not. They are the exact same thing. The only difference is cosmetic (smaller). But the chipsets, ram, etc is identical. They both suffer from the vertical line(s) and both have horrific ghosting when not filtered out via DNR or an XRGB.

And no, the original 1991 SNES does not have jailbars (SHVC-CPU-01). Only the SNS-CPU-RGB-01, SNS-CPU-RGB-02, and SNS-CPU-APU-01 have jailbars. The black levels between the SHVC-CPU-01 and the 1CHIP-Mini are pretty much the same.

The higher whites with white text, and the "apparent" deeper blacks within black text are due to the overdriven white level of the 1CHIP-Mini, by the way.

roadkill wrote:Systems don't always get worse with newer revisions. Microsoft combined the CPU and the GPU of the Xbox 360 into one to also cut costs. It was way superior to the launch Xbox 360s and completely eliminated the dreaded red ring of death that plagued the launch and Falcon model Xbox 360s.


The newer Xbox for sure has less "red ring of death" issues. But, you make it sound as if it was because they combined the CPU and GPU into 1 chip. That's one wild assumption if that's what your insinuating.

roadkill wrote:As time goes by and the console gets older, companies not only find ways to cut costs but to also make them better than the launch consoles. The Top Loading NES is the best NES


The only thing that the top loader NES has over the original is less issues with the PIN connector. Unfortunately, the top loader NES has crammed some of the original chips into 1 chip, which "may or may not" cause minor hiccups with some games.

And what your saying is a bit of a contradiction. Think about it. When you try to cut costs, you tend to take shortcuts and quality goes down. That's why the newer SNES is glitchy with some games. That's why the audio has a higher SNR (signal to noise ratio). That's why it has ghosting.

roadkill wrote:I've read that the Genesis 3, despite not having support for either the Sega CD or Sega 32X add-ons (maybe that's a good thing :lol: ), also has the best picture quality compared to the older old Genesis Model 1s and Model 2s when modified to support S-Video and/or RGB.


RGB is identical among all Genesis models.

roadkill wrote:Last but not least, the Game Genie not being supported on the SNES mini is nullified by the fact that I can just use the Game Genie feature in SNES flash carts such as the Super Everdrive v2 and supposedly the SD2SNES will add Game Genie support as well in the future.


Not true. The 1CHIP-Mini can't run anymore than 2 lines of codes (versus 5 lines on the original SNES), and that's only on the Version 2.0 Game Genie (the one that adds the dash between the letters while you punch in the code. The version 1.0 already has the dash added in)

Plus the Everdrive/SD2SNES is a hefty price to pay when the Game Genie only cost $10-15. And who knows if the Everdrive/SD2SNES will actually force the 1CHIP-Mini to accept more than 2 lines of code? Can it? Do you know if it can? No. You'll have to wait and see.

roadkill wrote:but I just had to voice my opinion to SNES_is_the_Best's post, SNES minis and 1CHIPs are "the_Best"!


No, the 1CHIP-Mini are the not best. They are only better in regards to having a sharper picture, and that's it. The ghosting, glitches, etc negates this in my opinion. Nevertheless, your opinion is most welcome.

DISCLAIMER
- Lets not derail this thread anymore. If you want to learn more about the differences between the "old" SNES vs. the "new" SNES, then go here - viewtopic.php?f=52&t=46303&p=874001#p874001

Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:58 am
by ApolloBoy
SNES_is_the_Best wrote:Unfortunately, the top loader NES has crammed some of the original chips into 1 chip, which "may or may not" cause minor hiccups with some games.

That's not true at all, the top loader uses the exact same chips as the front loader and original Famicom so games will play exactly the same no matter the system. The only real difference is that the top loader lacks the lockout chip. On the AV Famicom, Nintendo combined both controller buffer ICs into a single chip, but that's about it as far as they went with chip consolidation on the NES/Famicom.

I believe you're thinking of most Famiclones which do indeed have an inaccurate ASIC.